satellite bubble...POLL

Spike4000

this is the bubble of a sat. 10 seats nothing for 11th. out stack is 3k and the blinds are 300/600 (we have 5bb) We are 11/11 and need are level with one other person but then need a double to reach 9th. 5 handed. on the button we get dealt 22. folds around to us...what do we do?

MISTY4ME

What are the Small and Big Blinds Stack Sizes ?

Which table are the other Smallest Stacks on ?

More info needed please Spike

stokefc

shove, try steal the blinds.

I hate sats am completely useless at them voted shove to steal but really i want a call

stokefc

shove, try steal the blinds.

MISTY4ME said:

What are the Small and Big Blinds Stack Sizes ?

Which table are the other Smallest Stacks on ?

More info needed please Spike

you're over thinking it Jez lad

Spike4000

MISTY4ME said:

What are the Small and Big Blinds Stack Sizes ?

Which table are the other Smallest Stacks on ?

More info needed please Spike

you shouldn't need it..but okay fine. both have 9k so 3x us.

goldnballz

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

TheEdge949

fold, no need to get involved.

Why fold ?

We will have other opportunities to shove with better than this and in the meantime others can get eliminated. Just a personal thing, but for me here, 2 2 is only going in as an alternative to blinding out.

Essexphil

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

SCOTFOX

Essexphil said:

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

Says the guy who calls a re raise for ALL his chips in a qualifier and hits a flush with 2 of clubs.

Expert donk

TheEdge949

fold, no need to get involved.

SCOTFOX said:

Essexphil said:

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

Says the guy who calls a re raise for ALL his chips in a qualifier and hits a flush with 2 of clubs.

Expert donk

@SCOTFOX @Essexphil

Ahh but was it a donk play.

Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play.

Even if it is, surely we want opponents stacking off behind / light. Or is that only when they don't hit.

madprof

shove, try steal the blinds.

stokefc said:

MISTY4ME said:

What are the Small and Big Blinds Stack Sizes ?

Which table are the other Smallest Stacks on ?

More info needed please Spike

you're over thinking it Jez lad

Misty ( @MISTY4ME ) aka Jez aka donkey?

Overthinking?

Not possible! Requires a certain capacity eh donkey? 💩

StayOrGo

shove, try steal the blinds.

JAM, the blinds "should" fold most their range as they are "safe but might not be if they lost 3K and doubled you up" and yes their stack sizes are important, If they had 20K could call you light, and if they also only had 3K, they might think, it's you or them, but medium stacks have more to lose, and probably shouldn't call, except possibly with AA.

Having said the above, what people "should" do and what they "do" do is not always the same.

SCOTFOX

TheEdge949 said:

SCOTFOX said:

Essexphil said:

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

Says the guy who calls a re raise for ALL his chips in a qualifier and hits a flush with 2 of clubs.

Expert donk

@SCOTFOX @Essexphil

Ahh but was it a donk play.

Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play.

Even if it is, surely we want opponents stacking off behind / light. Or is that only when they don't hit.

Anyone who calls a re raise with 22 is a fool! What do expect the other guy to have that puts you ahead to justify calling?

These 'experts' that can put the raiser on AQ OR a pocket pair baffle me, HTF can anyone possibly know what the re raiser has and 22 should get binned. (Basically they are praying the other guy has AK so they are 50/50, then they get counterfeited when JJQQ3 land!)

You can raise with ANYTHING, but numpies call re raises with low pocket pairs, because AT BEST you have a 50/50 chance of winning + and most re raising will probably be a mile in front.

When you raise you are asking a question, and if you get re raised you have a dilemma and choice.

In a 28p S&G it is irrelevant, but in the later stages of a qualifying tournament it is plain daft to call a re raise with a low pocket pair or King high etc.

Essexphil

SCOTFOX said:

TheEdge949 said:

SCOTFOX said:

Essexphil said:

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

Says the guy who calls a re raise for ALL his chips in a qualifier and hits a flush with 2 of clubs.

Expert donk

@SCOTFOX @Essexphil

Ahh but was it a donk play.

Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play.

Even if it is, surely we want opponents stacking off behind / light. Or is that only when they don't hit.

Anyone who calls a re raise with 22 is a fool! What do expect the other guy to have that puts you ahead to justify calling?

These 'experts' that can put the raiser on AQ OR a pocket pair baffle me, HTF can anyone possibly know what the re raiser has and 22 should get binned. (Basically they are praying the other guy has AK so they are 50/50, then they get counterfeited when JJQQ3 land!)

You can raise with ANYTHING, but numpies call re raises with low pocket pairs, because AT BEST you have a 50/50 chance of winning + and most re raising will probably be a mile in front.

When you raise you are asking a question, and if you get re raised you have a dilemma and choice.

In a 28p S&G it is irrelevant, but in the later stages of a qualifying tournament it is plain daft to call a re raise with a low pocket pair or King high etc.

This is not correct. What you say will be the correct play a lot of the time. But not all of the time. Simply because of what @TheEdge949 says:-

"Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play."

If the blinds are 600/1200 and the SB shoves for a total of 1201 chips, is it a fold? Of course not. And when to call with 22 depends not only on the Raiser, but also the caller. If the BB has 1201 chips, it is always a call. Similarly, having 2400 chips in my example will usually be a call. Again, if the caller has 60,000 chips he can happily call a 6,000 shove in my example. Simply because he is gambling chips that have little value for him. Which is why one of the best players on this site called Jez with something like 9 3.

In an MTT, implied odds can often mean that calling with 22 to a raiser is correct. In addition, floating is hugely profitable against certain players. For example, on a recent thread, a player in the last 3 of the Sunday Major called a reraise with K2, then called a sizeable bet on the flop with just a gutshot. Not something I would (or could) ever do-but he is one of the best players on this site. I suggest you look at that hand. And think who wins that hand if Haysie had KK instead of AA-he gets floated off of it..

Chips have different values at different times in tournaments. All things being equal, what you say is usually correct. But on occasions it is not.

Tikay10

Specific circumstances can make SUCH a difference.

At the last SPT, late on the Saturday, someone opened & I jammed to isolate with about 80,000, but then I was horrified & shocked when @Essexphil CALLED behind me with 3-3.

It took me a few seconds to process, on the face of it, it was a shocking call, we can all agree that.

But then the penny dropped as to the specific circumstances.

Phil was already through to Day 2 with a stack well-above average, something like 140,000. And he had (roughly, I can't exactly recall) about 90,000 in this hand, late in the day on the Saturday.

So he was freerolling and the call was 100% spot on.

Hard to imagine 3-3 could ever be a call for almost all of one's chips, but circumstances can change everything.

Interesting debate, I really enjoy these threads.

Essexphil

Tikay10 said:

Specific circumstances can make SUCH a difference.

At the last SPT, late on the Saturday, someone opened & I jammed to isolate with about 80,000, but then I was horrified & shocked when @Essexphil CALLED behind me with 3-3.

It took me a few seconds to process, on the face of it, it was a shocking call, we can all agree that.

But then the penny dropped as to the specific circumstances.

Phil was already through to Day 2 with a stack well-above average, something like 140,000. And he had (roughly, I can't exactly recall) about 90,000 in this hand, late in the day on the Saturday.

So he was freerolling and the call was 100% spot on.

Hard to imagine 3-3 could ever be a call for almost all of one's chips, but circumstances can change everything.

Interesting debate, I really enjoy these threads.

I was about to fold. And then I saw your £330 Bounty card. Which made the difference. That is a big bounty in a £250 MTT. Later lost a 50/50 for 400,000 chips-but still had enough from Day 1A to have a fun Day 2.

Hit my 3. But didn't actually need it as the original shover's AQ and your 10 8 (!) both missed.

Tikay10

Ahh yes, I forgot the £330 Bounty, which added to the specific circumstances.

Tikay10

One other thing I'd mention about these threads.

It does not matter one iota what the result of the hand was. We can make the right decision & lose, or vice-versa.

The only thing that matters is making the correct decision in the particular circumstances. Everything else is in the lap of the Gods, but in the long-term we come out ahead.

As always, the first answer to these questions is "it depends"

Enut

I think one of the things that really winds up the more vocal on here is that the better players often get themselves in positions where they can afford (chip wise) to make calls that don't, on the face of it, look good. That's why they are the better players and also why lesser players just think they are lucky.

Essexphil

Tikay10 said:

One other thing I'd mention about these threads.

It does not matter one iota what the result of the hand was. We can make the right decision & lose, or vice-versa.

The only thing that matters is making the correct decision in the particular circumstances. Everything else is in the lap of the Gods, but in the long-term we come out ahead.

As always, the first answer to these questions is "it depends"

Agreed. Ultimately, it is a mixture of 2 things:-

1. Having the knowledge to know when it is + or -EV in terms of chips; and
2. Being aware of when there are factors whereby the possible extra chips is worth more than the probable loss of chips (or vice versa)

SCOTFOX

Essexphil said:

SCOTFOX said:

TheEdge949 said:

SCOTFOX said:

Essexphil said:

goldnballz said:

Why wouldn't you need it? It is crucial info, in a satellite

Exactly this.

If, for example, the BB is a big stack he is far, far more likely to call than if he is a medium stack.

Says the guy who calls a re raise for ALL his chips in a qualifier and hits a flush with 2 of clubs.

Expert donk

@SCOTFOX @Essexphil

Ahh but was it a donk play.

Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play.

Even if it is, surely we want opponents stacking off behind / light. Or is that only when they don't hit.

Anyone who calls a re raise with 22 is a fool! What do expect the other guy to have that puts you ahead to justify calling?

These 'experts' that can put the raiser on AQ OR a pocket pair baffle me, HTF can anyone possibly know what the re raiser has and 22 should get binned. (Basically they are praying the other guy has AK so they are 50/50, then they get counterfeited when JJQQ3 land!)

You can raise with ANYTHING, but numpies call re raises with low pocket pairs, because AT BEST you have a 50/50 chance of winning + and most re raising will probably be a mile in front.

When you raise you are asking a question, and if you get re raised you have a dilemma and choice.

In a 28p S&G it is irrelevant, but in the later stages of a qualifying tournament it is plain daft to call a re raise with a low pocket pair or King high etc.

This is not correct. What you say will be the correct play a lot of the time. But not all of the time. Simply because of what @TheEdge949 says:-

"Easy to say in isolation but unless we know the circumstances and have info regarding stack sizes, blinds, pot odds, implied odds, players left, payout structure etc. It's not necessarily a bad play."

If the blinds are 600/1200 and the SB shoves for a total of 1201 chips, is it a fold? Of course not. And when to call with 22 depends not only on the Raiser, but also the caller. If the BB has 1201 chips, it is always a call. Similarly, having 2400 chips in my example will usually be a call. Again, if the caller has 60,000 chips he can happily call a 6,000 shove in my example. Simply because he is gambling chips that have little value for him. Which is why one of the best players on this site called Jez with something like 9 3.

In an MTT, implied odds can often mean that calling with 22 to a raiser is correct. In addition, floating is hugely profitable against certain players. For example, on a recent thread, a player in the last 3 of the Sunday Major called a reraise with K2, then called a sizeable bet on the flop with just a gutshot. Not something I would (or could) ever do-but he is one of the best players on this site. I suggest you look at that hand. And think who wins that hand if Haysie had KK instead of AA-he gets floated off of it..

Chips have different values at different times in tournaments. All things being equal, what you say is usually correct. But on occasions it is not.

I hope you and others carry on calling re raises with 22 or 33.

I have no issues with actually raising with it or K2.

Players that regularly take chances will eventually come a cropper and they do not impress me. I would be more likely to re raise someone like you compared to players that i know are solid.

I comprehend your reasons and logic, however I want to go to war with the strongest army, and taking random risks when i have been re raised is not an option.

When i have £3 in a cash game, or playing for points in cheap S&Gs, i will chuck my chips in with random hands, but never if it involves serious money.