Pre-flop PLO8 Question for TK and other PLO8 "Gurus"

StayOrGo

Hi @Tikay10

Here's a question that may be right up your street?

In PLO8 (Hi/Low) how aggressive should you be pre flop with a "fairly good" LOW hand, at say 100BB's deep?

Let's say Ad2c4dTs (So Nut Flush Draw too)

Let's say UTG (6 handed) raises and you are on the button, are you calling or 3betting pre? If you 3bet, I take it you call a 4bet?

Also, does this change as the stacks get "shallower" and/or it's a button open and you're in the blinds.

I mean it feels "comfortable" to call and sit back to see if you get a low flop, but is that the right thing to do? Is "comfortable" best?

Also any other "4 card" gurus, feel free to chip in.

Many thanks for any responses.

Essexphil

I'll kick this off.

A2 in PLO8 is a lot like AK in NLH. a hand that divides opinion, and 1 that will often make or break your Tournament.

Rightly or wrongly, people will play AKs much more aggressively than AKo. Similarly, personally I want something to add to the A2 to raise rather than flat. Which here is the 4 and the suited A. So raise for me. And call or 5-bet, depending on the villain

Short-stacked? Automatic shove regardless.

Tikay10

@StayOrGo



Morning Graham.


Very interesting question, though I never was a "guru" at O8, & I'm afraid it's likely that whatever skills I did possess in my prime are now in decline. Even so, I love the question & will answer later, I'm a bit busy right now.

green_beer

i would call see a flop, then decide what to do..... if you 3bet, you are gonna pick up callers anyway no one folds pre in PL08 esp after opening.... imo 08 iS a flop, turn n river game compared to NLH being a preflop game.... if it was NL08 i would defo be shoving with 10BB.

StayOrGo

Essexphil said:

I'll kick this off.

A2 in PLO8 is a lot like AK in NLH. a hand that divides opinion, and 1 that will often make or break your Tournament.

Rightly or wrongly, people will play AKs much more aggressively than AKo. Similarly, personally I want something to add to the A2 to raise rather than flat. Which here is the 4 and the suited A. So raise for me. And call or 5-bet, depending on the villain

Short-stacked? Automatic shove regardless.

Thanks @Essexphil makes sense to me, although I also respect @green_beer 's more conservative view. Looks like @Tikay10 may have to be the deciding vote.

StayOrGo

Tikay10 said:

@StayOrGo



Morning Graham.


Very interesting question, though I never was a "guru" at O8, & I'm afraid it's likely that whatever skills I did possess in my prime are now in decline. Even so, I love the question & will answer later, I'm a bit busy right now.

Thx @Tikay10 no rush. I am sure you have retained much more PLO8 Poker prowess than you give yourself credit for. You certainly have a better insight into the game than I do, hence why I am asking the question.

I was going to play one of the PLO8 WCOOP's on Stars last night, but not knowing the "answer" to this question, I decided to give it a miss and play the 2-7 Triple Draw one instead. (Out of the frying pan into the fire)

It didn't end well, although I did Final Table a 2-7 Triple draw SCOOP event a few years back, so I'm a bit better with that, than I am PLO.

I also played the "8 GAME" a few days ago, but busted (as I often do, on the PLO (High Only) section, after going quite well in the "other games"), so PLO in general is a weakness, especially PLO (High only)

lfccarl

i would agree with phil

StayOrGo

lfccarl said:

i would agree with phil

Thanks for the feedback @lfccarl

So a follow on question for you and @Essexphil

Assuming you 3bet pre and they 4bet.

How many BB's are you happy to get it all in pre with this hand?

Or are we "nearly always" calling the 4bet and folding a high flop, unless we hit hard and/or have a strong draw. Say a 9TK flop with no Flush draw,

And, does it depend much on table positions?

lfccarl

all in for me per flop ( on sky poker )
the only way i dont go all in is if i have notes on this person to change my mind

lfccarl

the problem flatting and seeing the flop with are hand is if we get a flop like this 9TK flop with no Flush draw and he c bet its no a great spot

going all in per flop at worst your 40% vs 60%
flop you could be dead

lfccarl

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
lfccarl	Small blind		100.00	100.00	3727.50
bitofacoug	Big blind		200.00	300.00	2387.50
	Your hole cards	10 J 9 A
Ochaye2	Fold
chilling	Fold
Vonnie7336	Call		200.00	500.00	3562.50
lfccarl	Raise		500.00	1000.00	3227.50
bitofacoug	Fold
Vonnie7336	Raise		1800.00	2800.00	1762.50
lfccarl	Call		1400.00	4200.00	1827.50
Flop
		3 9 10
lfccarl	All-in		1827.50	6027.50	0.00
Vonnie7336	All-in		1762.50	7790.00	0.00
lfccarl	Unmatched bet		65.00	7725.00	65.00
lfccarl	Show	10 J 9 A
Vonnie7336	Show	10 A A K
Turn
		8
River
		5
lfccarl	Win high	Flush to the Ace	7725.00		7790.00
	No qualifying low hand

Tikay10

@StayOrGo


Hi Graham.


Sorry for delayed reply.

The answer to most of your questions is really two-fold;

1) It depends

2) Are we a gambler who relishes a flip, or a nurdler who likes to build a stack with small pot poker, gradually nurdling, nicking & weedling in the early stages? (Late stages this has to change).


PS - with a 100BB stack, I'm assuming this is quite early in the Tourney.


In the first place, I'm probably calling. Why? Because if I 4 bet & he then 5 bets, WE KNOW HIS HAND & I definitely don't want to 6 bet & gii now. He either has the Aces, or some sort of A-2-3-K sort of hand. We are not far ahead or behind here, we are close to flipping against his low, against his Aces we are a small dog. 100BB's deep there's no way on God's earth I want to flip here, it's the wrong play. So I probably call & then re-assess after we've a) seen the flop & b) seen what he does.

Later in the Tournament, when the stacks become much shallower, I'm almost certainly ready to gamble & gii. It's a great spot if we have, say, 8 to 10 BB. With a bigger stack, not so much.

"Or are we "nearly always" calling the 4bet and folding a high flop, unless we hit hard and/or have a strong draw."


YES


"And, does it depend much on table positions?"


Well I'm MUCH happier to proceed as described in position, and I really don't want to play this pot OOP. If I'm short-stacked, well OK, I have to, but position is FAR more important than most realise.


I have to remind you that "it depends". I'm old school, & prefer to build my stack patiently & carefully, & as a general rule, with a playable stack I'm not looking to flip for stacks. Lots of players ARE, & that's fine, but it's not for me, I'm not here to try & win a series of coin tosses, I want to (try to) impose some skill into it. I'm not saying it's wrong to flip for stacks early doors, but it's not for me. I plan to be at this table all day.

Essexphil

The beauty of poker is that different people play different hands different ways.

I see this totally differently to @Tikay10

I think the key words were said by @lfccarl "on Sky poker".

It is important to adjust your play from site to site. So, for example, it is undoubtedly true that in NLH, as a general rule, Sky players are tighter than certain other sites. The reverse is true in PLO8 on Sky. Particularly pre-flop.

There is not a large core base of PLO8 players on Sky. Various reasons for that. The most important of which is the lack of PLO8 MTTs, particularly no regular MTT above £5 (and only 1 at £5). You are far more likely to see a 5-bet with random bollo on Sky. Similarly, people in PLO8 seem far more reluctant to get it in with less than 5 bigs.

Tikay10

That's fair comment by @Essexphil

The way I read Graham's question I was 100% certain that it did NOT pertain to Sky Poker, mostly for the reasons you have stated. It may well have been a WCOOP sort of thing, or a "Series" event elsewhere, but not Sky Poker.

On Sky Poker, at a maximum £5 entry, it's probably a case of "let's have some fun & gamble".

lfccarl

Tikay10 said:

That's fair comment by @Essexphil

The way I read Graham's question I was 100% certain that it did NOT pertain to Sky Poker, mostly for the reasons you have stated. It may well have been a WCOOP sort of thing, or a "Series" event elsewhere, but not Sky Poker.

On Sky Poker, at a maximum £5 entry, it's probably a case of "let's have some fun & gamble".

if this hand was on wcoop early in the mtt fold it i dont play much plo8 on other site but when i do i play alot more tighter side ( sky poker ) plo8 play are more likely to get it all in with any 4 cards

lfccarl

lfccarl said:

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
lfccarl	Small blind		100.00	100.00	3727.50
bitofacoug	Big blind		200.00	300.00	2387.50
	Your hole cards	10 J 9 A
Ochaye2	Fold
chilling	Fold
Vonnie7336	Call		200.00	500.00	3562.50
lfccarl	Raise		500.00	1000.00	3227.50
bitofacoug	Fold
Vonnie7336	Raise		1800.00	2800.00	1762.50
lfccarl	Call		1400.00	4200.00	1827.50
Flop
		3 9 10
lfccarl	All-in		1827.50	6027.50	0.00
Vonnie7336	All-in		1762.50	7790.00	0.00
lfccarl	Unmatched bet		65.00	7725.00	65.00
lfccarl	Show	10 J 9 A
Vonnie7336	Show	10 A A K
Turn
		8
River
		5
lfccarl	Win high	Flush to the Ace	7725.00		7790.00
	No qualifying low hand

i would of folded per flop on other site with this hand

StayOrGo

Thanks for the response @Tikay10.

So back to the original question, in relation to stack depth.

If villain has opened, (so just facing an open raise not a 3bet) how many bigs would you just call with, and how many bigs would you 3bet with? Or do you always 3bet here?

(Hand is Ad2c4dTs)

For you, is it something like:

Less than 20BB's: 3bet and happy to get it in?
Between 21-40BB: Just call?
Greater than 40BB's: 3bet and call a 4bet? Or, are you only ever 3betting here when short?

I completely understand about calling and using the "skill element" to proceed when deep, but just wonder, at what stage blind depth you get more aggressive pre. Also when super deep (100BB+) is it worth 3betting and calling a 4bet, to inflate the pot. And barrel with the nut low draw/wheel draw and/or nut flush draw.

Thanks again.

StayOrGo

Tikay10 said:

That's fair comment by @Essexphil

The way I read Graham's question I was 100% certain that it did NOT pertain to Sky Poker, mostly for the reasons you have stated. It may well have been a WCOOP sort of thing, or a "Series" event elsewhere, but not Sky Poker.

On Sky Poker, at a maximum £5 entry, it's probably a case of "let's have some fun & gamble".

Yes it was a WCOOP I was considering playing. Probably play a bit more on STARS than on SKY now days. I did finish 16th in a WCOOP Sunday Million (NLHE) a week or so ago for $4K, (6,000+ runners) was bitter/sweet as over $100K up top, with bounties, but nice to have a deep run. Who knows how long it will be for the next one. It's quite hard navigating your way through these big fields.:'(

lfccarl

at the end of the video my answer
final table of tonight £5.50 plo8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igeoOsv7HnQ

Enut

Watched the first bit @lfccarl to enjoy my exit hand again, couldn't hear your commentary very well (very low volume on my work PC) after my exit at 12.50 ish but were you querying my play or opps? In my opinion AAK8 ds at those stack depths is as about as good as it gets and I'm raising pre and getting it in on the flop all day long. I was 90:10 favourite on the flop, sadly opp hit perfect, perfect to scoop. Lovely.

Will try and watch the rest later but have a long day of paperwork ahead. Well played yesterday.

lfccarl

Enut said:

Watched the first bit @lfccarl to enjoy my exit hand again, couldn't hear your commentary very well (very low volume on my work PC) after my exit at 12.50 ish but were you querying my play or opps? In my opinion AAK8 ds at those stack depths is as about as good as it gets and I'm raising pre and getting it in on the flop all day long. I was 90:10 favourite on the flop, sadly opp hit perfect, perfect to scoop. Lovely.

Will try and watch the rest later but have a long day of paperwork ahead. Well played yesterday.

yes you very unlucky