Sorry for the derail @StayOrGo. In answer to your original question I pretty much agree with @Essexphil and @Tikay10 here, albeit with my much more limited experience of PLO8 MTTs (only Sky and therefore only small buy ins).
I'm definitely not trying to get Ad2c4dTs AIP here when 200BB deep or even 20BB deep to be honest, if we manage to do so then, in a decent buy in MTT, I would suspect almost certainly we are up against AA2x and we're a dog against that. It's the sort of hand that I will usually raise or 3 bet with pre when deep but when deep on Sky that means everybody still calls and you go often 6 way to the flop! You can then ditch it when the flop kills your potential or, if you get a good flop, you have more players to potentially pay you off, it's highly unlikely that they will all have A2 for example (impossible obviously for anyone thinking I'm mad).
I've tried the more aggressive approach and it just doesn't work for me, it almost always ends with me going out early and that's not what I want to do, definitely not on Sky.
Later in the tournament is different and 10-15 BB deep I'm probably reraising and getting it in pre if at all possible and less than 10 BB I'm almost certainly just going with it unless ICM and the bubble are relevant.
Of course much of that changes if it's a rebuy and we're still in the rebuy period, then you can just go mad can't you, after all no one really cares about how much a MTT costs you, just how much you win!
Sorry for the derail @StayOrGo. In answer to your original question I pretty much agree with @Essexphil and @Tikay10 here, albeit with my much more limited experience of PLO8 MTTs (only Sky and therefore only small buy ins).
I'm definitely not trying to get Ad2c4dTs AIP here when 200BB deep or even 20BB deep to be honest, if we manage to do so then, in a decent buy in MTT, I would suspect almost certainly we are up against AA2x and we're a dog against that. It's the sort of hand that I will usually raise or 3 bet with pre when deep but when deep on Sky that means everybody still calls and you go often 6 way to the flop! You can then ditch it when the flop kills your potential or, if you get a good flop, you have more players to potentially pay you off, it's highly unlikely that they will all have A2 for example (impossible obviously for anyone thinking I'm mad).
I've tried the more aggressive approach and it just doesn't work for me, it almost always ends with me going out early and that's not what I want to do, definitely not on Sky.
Later in the tournament is different and 10-15 BB deep I'm probably reraising and getting it in pre if at all possible and less than 10 BB I'm almost certainly just going with it unless ICM and the bubble are relevant.
Of course much of that changes if it's a rebuy and we're still in the rebuy period, then you can just go mad can't you, after all no one really cares about how much a MTT costs you, just how much you win!
Back to we all play things differently.
200BBs? Absolutely agree. 20BBs? Too shallow to fold flops-I'm getting it in pre-flop. Also true for 30-50 BBs, depending on how much has already been committed/how many people are in.
PS. Stars has players who are far more aggressive both pre-flop and on the flop. Far less likely to call, far more likely to 3-bet. They rely on people folding iffy flops...
@Essexphil maybe I'm being a little too tight at 20BB, but definitely 30-50BB is way too risky and you have far too much play left to want to gamble it AIP with Ad2c4dTs in my opinion. I do appreciate that you have far more knowledge of non Sky games though so bow to your better knowledge.
If we are super simplifying the game it feels like when you are deep you want to build the pot with hands that have access to winning both the high and the low and play passively with hands that only have access to one part. So a hand like AK42 would be better to 3b than A842. And just play lots of hands in position. I'm sure high stakes plays more aggressive and nuanced than this. If people are calling our 3bets way out of line just expand our value 3b range. A42T seems okay to 3b when it has the nut suit really deep as it can make lots of powerful nutted hands but probably isn't mandatory 3b whereas you would always 3b AK42 nut suit.
@Essexphil maybe I'm being a little too tight at 20BB, but definitely 30-50BB is way too risky and you have far too much play left to want to gamble it AIP with Ad2c4dTs in my opinion. I do appreciate that you have far more knowledge of non Sky games though so bow to your better knowledge.
Just wanted to explain my thinking here.
The first thing to say is that it would not be my intention to always get it in with 30-50BB. But it very much depends on the action.
Suppose you have 30BB. (I'm always rubbish with max PL raises but bear with me). Someone raises to 2.5BB. You reraise to 6BB. Then there is a caller and someone else rearaises to 15BB. Calling for half your stack with 3 people behind makes no sense. The best play is a shove.
Not saying your aim should be to get it all in pre flop. But if you are not prepared to do so if there is further action, then should not 3-bet.
PS. On Stars, I am usually the tightest player on the table...
If we are super simplifying the game it feels like when you are deep you want to build the pot with hands that have access to winning both the high and the low and play passively with hands that only have access to one part. So a hand like AK42 would be better to 3b than A842. And just play lots of hands in position. I'm sure high stakes plays more aggressive and nuanced than this. If people are calling our 3bets way out of line just expand our value 3b range. A42T seems okay to 3b when it has the nut suit really deep as it can make lots of powerful nutted hands but probably isn't mandatory 3b whereas you would always 3b AK42 nut suit.
What the entire thread keeps (correctly) telling us is how our play should differ at different stack depths.
Worth noting that in PLO8 we can get down as low as 6 or 8 BB before we start to worry too much. It's not ideal, but it's not terribad either, as our next play will leave us with Zero or at least 12 or 16BB's, maybe more. And that's loads in PL.
There is an inflection point though, when we go from patiently trying to play good, sensible, thinking poker & "looking for a spot" when we decide it's time to gamble.
Comments
I'm definitely not trying to get Ad2c4dTs AIP here when 200BB deep or even 20BB deep to be honest, if we manage to do so then, in a decent buy in MTT, I would suspect almost certainly we are up against AA2x and we're a dog against that. It's the sort of hand that I will usually raise or 3 bet with pre when deep but when deep on Sky that means everybody still calls and you go often 6 way to the flop! You can then ditch it when the flop kills your potential or, if you get a good flop, you have more players to potentially pay you off, it's highly unlikely that they will all have A2 for example (impossible obviously for anyone thinking I'm mad).
I've tried the more aggressive approach and it just doesn't work for me, it almost always ends with me going out early and that's not what I want to do, definitely not on Sky.
Later in the tournament is different and 10-15 BB deep I'm probably reraising and getting it in pre if at all possible and less than 10 BB I'm almost certainly just going with it unless ICM and the bubble are relevant.
Of course much of that changes if it's a rebuy and we're still in the rebuy period, then you can just go mad can't you, after all no one really cares about how much a MTT costs you, just how much you win!
200BBs? Absolutely agree.
20BBs? Too shallow to fold flops-I'm getting it in pre-flop. Also true for 30-50 BBs, depending on how much has already been committed/how many people are in.
PS. Stars has players who are far more aggressive both pre-flop and on the flop. Far less likely to call, far more likely to 3-bet. They rely on people folding iffy flops...
The first thing to say is that it would not be my intention to always get it in with 30-50BB. But it very much depends on the action.
Suppose you have 30BB. (I'm always rubbish with max PL raises but bear with me). Someone raises to 2.5BB. You reraise to 6BB. Then there is a caller and someone else rearaises to 15BB. Calling for half your stack with 3 people behind makes no sense. The best play is a shove.
Not saying your aim should be to get it all in pre flop. But if you are not prepared to do so if there is further action, then should not 3-bet.
PS. On Stars, I am usually the tightest player on the table...
Thanks Groggs @FeelGroggy
Always good to read your take on these things.
What the entire thread keeps (correctly) telling us is how our play should differ at different stack depths.
Worth noting that in PLO8 we can get down as low as 6 or 8 BB before we start to worry too much. It's not ideal, but it's not terribad either, as our next play will leave us with Zero or at least 12 or 16BB's, maybe more. And that's loads in PL.
There is an inflection point though, when we go from patiently trying to play good, sensible, thinking poker & "looking for a spot" when we decide it's time to gamble.