How good is 3456 in PLO8?

StayOrGo

Hi @Tikay10 and other PLOPERS.

How good is 3456, say 3d,4s,5h,6h. in PLO H/L

Lets assume you are on the button and there has been a raise and a 3bet before you.

At say 50BB's are we calling or folding? I take it 4betting's not a good option? But do we cold call the 3bet or fold.

Say we call and get a 2T8 rainbow board, or a 2T6 board, how do we proceed?

1) Is it just a fold to a Cbet in both cases?
2) A call in both cases
3) A fold on the 2T8 but call on 2T6
4) A fold on the 2T8 but a re-raise on 2T6
5) A call on the 2T8 but a re-raise on 2T6
6) Something else?

I genuinely have no clue what to do in these spots.

Many thanks for any feedback. Also if you just want to respond to the "pre flop" bit, that's fine.

Essexphil

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

StayOrGo

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

StayOrGo

My gut tells me to call the 3bet pre, and to fold the 2T8 board, but re-raise the flop on the 2T6 with "super outs", (Option 4) but this is just based on instinct and I am probably wrong. I guess if my 3bet post flop is always getting called, then just calling is better? But also I could lose the action with another low card and not get paid with my monster draw, but this may be NLHE thinking.

@Essexphil is way better at this game than me, so I probably need to tighten up a bit.

Essexphil

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

No, that remains the same.

The reason for my thinking pre is this. It is not just the extra cost of the call after a reraise. When it is just the 1 raise, you know the price of the call, because the pre-flop action has finished with your call. And, even with an iffy hand like this, you are getting the price to call EDIT:-misread button for BB. But principle remains the same, in that there are more people that may reraise

When you are calling to a raise and reraise, you may be facing a 4-bet and a 5-bet. Which, with 3456, is setting fire to money

StayOrGo

Essexphil said:

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

No, that remains the same.

The reason for my thinking pre is this. It is not just the extra cost of the call after a reraise. When it is just the 1 raise, you know the price of the call, because the pre-flop action has finished with your call. And, even with an iffy hand like this, you are getting the price to call EDIT:-misread button for BB. But principle remains the same, in that there are more people that may reraise

When you are calling to a raise and reraise, you may be facing a 4-bet and a 5-bet. Which, with 3456, is setting fire to money

If you are on the button, the action is not finished, regardless of whether it's just an open raise or a 3bet, as the blinds are still to act. If the blinds both fold the action then it's just a case of whether the initial raiser 4bets, which in fairness is more likely than the blinds doing it

StayOrGo

It's a very good point that you make though @Essexphil if it's just an open then it would need to be the blinds that 3bet as the initial opener can't do anything more unless they do. I knew cold calling 3bets probably wasn't a great idea.

Essexphil

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

No, that remains the same.

The reason for my thinking pre is this. It is not just the extra cost of the call after a reraise. When it is just the 1 raise, you know the price of the call, because the pre-flop action has finished with your call. And, even with an iffy hand like this, you are getting the price to call EDIT:-misread button for BB. But principle remains the same, in that there are more people that may reraise

When you are calling to a raise and reraise, you may be facing a 4-bet and a 5-bet. Which, with 3456, is setting fire to money

If you are on the button, the action is not finished, regardless of whether it's just an open raise or a 3bet, as the blinds are still to act. If the blinds both fold the action then it's just a case of whether the initial raiser 4bets, which in fairness is more likely than the blinds doing it

Agreed-that is why I had edited it...
In theory 4 as opposed to 3 may reraise. But you are only in big trouble when 2 hands reraise. And you can already see 2 hands have stated they are raising hands...

I'm on the nittier side of PLO8. But that is a clear fold pre-. With 50BB.

StayOrGo

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

No, that remains the same.

The reason for my thinking pre is this. It is not just the extra cost of the call after a reraise. When it is just the 1 raise, you know the price of the call, because the pre-flop action has finished with your call. And, even with an iffy hand like this, you are getting the price to call EDIT:-misread button for BB. But principle remains the same, in that there are more people that may reraise

When you are calling to a raise and reraise, you may be facing a 4-bet and a 5-bet. Which, with 3456, is setting fire to money

If you are on the button, the action is not finished, regardless of whether it's just an open raise or a 3bet, as the blinds are still to act. If the blinds both fold the action then it's just a case of whether the initial raiser 4bets, which in fairness is more likely than the blinds doing it

The bit in bold was a great help, and now see why cold calling the 3bet was a bad idea.

If you have time @Essexphil lets say it was just an open raise and then you called, how would you proceed post then, when facing a flop Cbet from the initial aggressor? (Assume blinds folded) And is it different if it's say a "HALF POT" Cbet or a "POT" sized Cbet. (Sorry for late amendment)

Essexphil

StayOrGo said:

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

StayOrGo said:

Essexphil said:

For me, it is:-

Fold pre. I am probably calling a raise, but folding to a raise and a 3-bet

And probably 1), possibly 3)

Thanks @Essexphilde

Apologies, I edited the post possibly after you responded, in case numbers don't tally. Although it's probably a mute point if you are folding pre. (Although I think 1 and 3 are unchanged)

No, that remains the same.

The reason for my thinking pre is this. It is not just the extra cost of the call after a reraise. When it is just the 1 raise, you know the price of the call, because the pre-flop action has finished with your call. And, even with an iffy hand like this, you are getting the price to call EDIT:-misread button for BB. But principle remains the same, in that there are more people that may reraise

When you are calling to a raise and reraise, you may be facing a 4-bet and a 5-bet. Which, with 3456, is setting fire to money

If you are on the button, the action is not finished, regardless of whether it's just an open raise or a 3bet, as the blinds are still to act. If the blinds both fold the action then it's just a case of whether the initial raiser 4bets, which in fairness is more likely than the blinds doing it

The bit in bold was a great help, and now see why cold calling the 3bet was a bad idea.

If you have time @Essexphil lets say it was just an open raise and then you called, how would you proceed post then, when facing a flop Cbet from the initial aggressor? (Assume blinds folded)

The 2T8 is relatively easy. It is a fold, unless you believe you can bluff people off.

The 2T6 is a lot closer. A lot may depend on whether we are facing 1 or 2 people on that turn. I'm a lot happier calling (or sometimes raising) v 1 player, rather than 2. Because v 1 player, I am facing a lot of bluffs, and a lot of chops.

Whereas v 2 players I am going to be 2nd twice, or quartered. A lot.

FeelGroggy

i think it is not such a good hand. easy one to get scooped or quartered in but quite unlikely to be the one scooping the pot. Even when you make a high on a straight board, say a 457 board it is incredibly likely one of your opponents is going to take half the pot anyway with a A3xx or something. Think it is a bit of a 'trap' hand, maybe similar to how new texas hold em players play too much weak Ax

Enut

3456 is not a great hand at PLO8 IMO unless you can get to see a flop cheaply. You have to be very lucky to get the low and similarly lucky to get the high, assuming that the rest of the table has some idea of the correct starting hand rankings.

To a raise and a 3 bet? Straight in the muck and I'm not even thinking about it, especially if it could then get 4 or 5 bet or all in preflop. Nope not liking that at all. Although at 50bb deep I suppose if the raise/raraise are not pot sized there could be an argument to try and see a flop, but normally no.

If you've got to a flop then 2T8 is a fold, unless very, very cheap to see a card, but as described it's probably not going to be cheap. After all you're praying for an Ace to get the low and runner, runner to get a high.

2T6 is better, any A for the low and any 3,4,5 for the high assuming we don't see runner runner for the flush possibility or 7,9,J for the higher straights, so I'm probably calling. I don't like these situations for going all in as it seems to be a good way for me to exit the tournament when it comes high card, high card, or pairs the board or any number of bad run outs.

p.s. this is my own view and almost certainly wrong, I only play for fun and try to avoid going out early on a 'punt' as that means my PLO8 tables are drastically reduced or maybe even finished for the evening and then I can't even watch TV as it's away being fixed, so I may have to resort to talking to the wife!

Enut

I supppose that given the pre flop action you could realistically expect both opps to have either A2 or AA in their hands, so an A2x (with x being low) flop, could be the gin flop, meaning you have the nut low locked and are drawing to the wheel. Like set mining at holdem I suppose. But realistically how often is that going to happen? And it's a long way from the 2T8, or 2T6 flop described. Sorry I'm waffling.

Tikay10

@StayOrGo

With Action in front of me pre-flop, I'd ask myself "how likely is it that I can SCOOP?"

I don't know the maths but the answer is surely "very rarely indeed" so I'm folding.

I don't want to get involved heads up in hands where I'm unlikely to scoop. If we are 3 or 4 handed, that's a little different but with this hand I'm drawing pretty thin imo.

We want to SCOOP not chop.

StayOrGo

@Essexphil @FeelGroggy @Enut @Tikay10 thanks for the feedback.

How about this scenario, deep in the tournament (in the money) average stack is 15BB which say we have.

If the button raises, I would nearly always put in a POT sized 3bet with 3456 in the small blind. Rightly or wrongly. (Probably wrongly based on the previous feedback)

My rational here is that I may well take it down pre, as calling 3bets is not so common at those blind depths, at that stage, even in PLO8 from my limited experience. OK I don't have any real blockers, but it is a button raise after all.

If I do get 4bet All In then I just go with it and hope for a chop.

I guess, what I am saying is that if the button is going to fold to 3bets pre a lot of the time, then I probably only need 40% equity if it all goes in, to make it a profitable play.

Even against one of the worst scenarios of oppo having AAK2 I am still 42%, see screenshot. I can't find a scenario where I am worse than 42%, (other than AA23, AA24, AA25, AA26, which is a very small part of a button's opening range. Even have 47% against AAKK.




So if villain is folding to my 3bet at 15BB's late stages 2/3rds of the time, it increases my stack by almost a 3rd.

To me it seems a no brainer to 3bet here as it is getting folds often enough, and not too shabby odds, if it goes in.

From my limited experience, when things get shallow, the "stickiness levels" become similar to NLHE, where as when deep, no-one folds to 3bets as there is so much equity, but ICM seems to stop the calling of 3bets with marginal holdings at this stage. Is that a fair observation?

Is this floored thinking do you think?

As an "add on" to this, if it's 2345, how does that change things? I mean, I do get that having a low hand that actually has an Ace is huge, but it's these "good" low hands without an Ace that keep me up all night.

To me and my aggro mind 2345 is great! As if oppo has Axxx hand when he hits the Ace I get the low quite often, if he doesn't then I can do him with a straight or even a low two pair if he has high cards. Obviously goes without saying, a board with no low, is a probable disaster, and this may be why PLOPPERS proceed cautiously here?

So the question that seems to be manifesting/emerging here, is related to a question I asked a while back, at what stack depths do we start using our good low hands a 3betting options, when we feel that it is shallow enough to fold out marginals, but what stack depth is that? Sorry for all the questions. It's just one answer, seems to lead me to another question.

It seems to me that this PLO8 "mind set" of making it a flop, turn, river game is OK when deep, but shallow, if we don't 3bet our good low hands pre, then we miss out on taking pots down uncontested, which must, I assume, still be an important part of the game when the average stack is less than 20BB's late stages? Especially if we have them covered?

I know in NLHE, when 12BB's deep if you JAM 12BB's, over an initial open, and they fold 70-75% of the time, you actually only need 30% equity if called, not even that with anties. So 40%+ is huge!

Enut

This probably backs up your point rather well, the final hand of the £5 PLO8 MTT last night........I get dealt AA106 with hearts so I'm going with it all day long, opponent has 3469 with worse hearts .....

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Enut	Small blind		3000.00	3000.00	53271.38
02081966	Big blind		6000.00	9000.00	69728.62
	Your hole cards	6 A 10 A
Enut	Raise		15000.00	24000.00	38271.38
02081966	Call		12000.00	36000.00	57728.62
Flop
		A 2 Q
02081966	Check
Enut	Bet		36000.00	72000.00	2271.38
02081966	Call		36000.00	108000.00	21728.62
Turn
		4
02081966	Check
Enut	All-in		2271.38	110271.38	0.00
02081966	Call		2271.38	112542.76	19457.24
Enut	Show	6 A 10 A
02081966	Show	6 3 4 9
River
		5
02081966	Win high	Straight to the 6	56271.38		75728.62
02081966	Win low	5-low	56271.38		132000.00

Interestingly, pre flop I'm only 65:35
On the flop, where I have top set, the current nuts and virtually all the money goes in.....I'm now 56:44
On the turn I've dropped to a dog at 47:53, I can't scoop but Opp has a 10% scoop chance......
Which he hits.

Gotta love PLO8.... GG!

Enut

I'm looking forward to opening up my 3 bet, 4 bet and jam ranges or calling jam raises to include the likes of 2345 and 3456 although I suspect it may be followed by a plethora of high only boards .

Essexphil

It certainly gets more interesting at 10-15BB.

The first thing to say is that 3456 is a horrible hand. It is a weak-ish hand from a low point of view, and even weaker from a high perspective. Even if you hit a straight you will often be up against flushes or better straights.

PLO8 is a game of smaller margins than NLH. You rarely get 80% v 20% situations. You will get "reasonable" odds (to a NLH mindset) with almost any 4 cards. Probably just remove 4 of a kind, 3 of a kind, and some 2 pair hands.

But that is a 2-way street. It is also the case that it is far more likely that you will get a better hand than 3456 before your next BB. I'd say almost certain.

But it is 15BB. And 1 of them is already committed. And a lot of PLO8 players fold too often to a 3-bet. Simply because a lot of PLO8 players play poker like NLH in 2007. When 3-bets really were a sign of strength.

Me? I'm still folding. But, in that spot, I think you can make a case for folding, calling or 3-betting.

I think with more than 20BB it is a definite fold. At 15BB it is a marginal fold. And at 8-10BB or less it may well be a shove.

But that's just my take. Without knowing the betting practices of the raiser. And there are lots of ways to play PLO8

Tedson

I'm no expert, but surely the problem with this hand against strong PLO8 ranges, is that it's very difficult to scoop. If we hit a good high hand, it will usually mean that someone else will have a better low (unless it comes A23XX, or something like that. And 1 or 2 Aces are probably held by our opponents, so an ace won't flop as often). I would have thought that a hand like QJT9, would be better, as there won't usually be a low when we make a straight (and never when we make a FH).

Other thing is, we rarely want to be cold calling 3 bets with 3 players to act behind. Maybe if we're closing the action it's not a bad hand when we're deep, because we can make nut nut.

FeelGroggy

Equities do just run close in this game. Take this absolutely terrible hand: https://gyazo.com/9f4f0cd7e056148331aa8395c8bdc2ad Still has 37% pot share vs a good hand. It doesn't mean the answer is to 3bet and call it off because you have the equity anyway now. I guess what this tells us though is that gambling when shallow stacked and playing aggressive and calling is going to be okay as the equities are close, and deep where being quartered/ scooped is more expensive these hands are going to be much worse. Maybe calling is a bit more viable in this game from SB and especially defending very wide in BB as you are basically always going to have the price.

JammyFker

Look forward to seeing you in the 2 and 5 PLO8 streets @FeelGroggy