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Farmers have "nothing to lose"-really?

2

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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 170,984
    legascaac said:

    Why do you think they should pay double tax .. on something they or they’re ancestors have already paid for .. that would be like your family having to pay 20% off the value off your property when you pass away .. it’s not right punishing people who’ve worked hard to get what they’ve got .. for there families.. there shouldn’t be inheritance tax full stop just a government grab from hard working people.who have already paid taxes . The way round it put there names on the title deeds ..
    they’re Cash poor asset rich
    Ma own family can’t afford to fix part off the farm house on a 98 acre farm the out buildings all leak .. half ma family run small farms .. they’re kids and wife’s all live in the farm houses as they can’t afford to build them houses off there own .. it’s robbery sick robbery.. if they have to pay that they’ll be homeless..
    But that could be Labours plan
    As they can’t sell for half the valuation off there land and property unless they sell to developers.. who are offering a third off the price their lands worth talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place … growth already stagnant.. food prices go up because off this … god help the old folk if that happens.. but they should strike .. like all the unions do they might get a 35% pay rise .. not .. but if they do strike food prices will rise a lot and labour will be to blame.. clueless clowns..🤡

    @legascaac

    "that would be like your family having to pay 20% off the value off your property when you pass away"


    As already mentioned by two wiser counsel than me (well, 1 if we exclude @HAYSIE) us normal people (i.e.,. not Farmers) currently pay 40% IHT, not 20%.

    And we ALL pay double (or more) Tax on many things. (i.e., my wages are taxed, & then I pay VAT on purchases).

    Public services - NHS, Defence, Benefits, Social Care, etc - cost money, & have to be paid for.




  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
    legascaac said:

    The value is land they’ve no cash

    Exactly the same as inheriting a property.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
    legascaac said:

    The value is land they’ve no cash

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rNY2LWirc
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
    edited November 20
    HAYSIE said:

    legascaac said:

    The value is land they’ve no cash

    It is not a good argument.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJA1Qw6ZUnM
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    edited November 20
    Love the way some Farmers pretend they are looking after future generations. When they are most certainly not.

    Farmers are currently fond of saying how low return on capital is. But that is only true if you buy in to the particular methodology used.

    There is a simple reason why returns compared to value of land are so low. Simply because the past (and current) tax breaks given to investors pretending to be farmers artificially pushes up the price of land.

    Value of agricultural land per acre in 2003? £2,000. Today? Approximately £10,000. Now Farmers are very keen to point out farms are not that profitable. Which does rather beg the question why farm prices have quintupled. Because it is not profit. And it is mostly not inflation. The cumulative inflation 2003-24 is approximately 75%. Not 500%. The main reason is due to multimillionaires buying land to avoid IHT.

    What we have is the haves. Wanting to ensure that tax breaks continue. To keep agricultural land prices artificially high. To protect Farmers. And sons of Farmers. At the cost of the Taxpayer. And people who want to be Farmers and don't have a Farmer as a Dad.

    Always amuses me when people who bang on about how important "market forces" are insist on manipulating markets to suit themselves.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
    Essexphil said:

    Love the way some Farmers pretend they are looking after future generations. When they are most certainly not.

    Farmers are currently fond of saying how low return on capital is. But that is only true if you buy in to the particular methodology used.

    There is a simple reason why returns compared to value of land are so low. Simply because the past (and current) tax breaks given to investors pretending to be farmers artificially pushes up the price of land.

    Value of agricultural land per acre in 2003? £2,000. Today? Approximately £10,000. Now Farmers are very keen to point out farms are not that profitable. Which does rather beg the question why farm prices have quintupled. Because it is not profit. And it is mostly not inflation. The cumulative inflation 2003-24 is approximately 75%. Not 500%. The main reason is due to multimillionaires buying land to avoid IHT.

    What we have is the haves. Wanting to ensure that tax breaks continue. To keep agricultural land prices artificially high. To protect Farmers. And sons of Farmers. At the cost of the Taxpayer. And people who want to be Farmers and don't have a Farmer as a Dad.

    Always amuses me when people who bang on about how important "market forces" are insist on manipulating markets to suit themselves.

    They just havent got a good argument.
    I watched a Sky News report the other night.
    It was disappointing because the didnt question the farmer in any depth.
    He said his farm made £19k per year.
    Now if this is true he would be better off working full time in a chicken shop.
    If he and his wife both worked full time in a chicken shop they would treble their income.
    Although I suspect that the farm made £19k per year after he had drawn maybe a £50k salary.
    Maybe after his wife has also drawn a £30k salary.
    Anyone that runs a business that makes £19k per year is surely better off selling up, and going to work for someone else.
    The reporter should clearly have asked more questions, in order to report the truth.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Love the way some Farmers pretend they are looking after future generations. When they are most certainly not.

    Farmers are currently fond of saying how low return on capital is. But that is only true if you buy in to the particular methodology used.

    There is a simple reason why returns compared to value of land are so low. Simply because the past (and current) tax breaks given to investors pretending to be farmers artificially pushes up the price of land.

    Value of agricultural land per acre in 2003? £2,000. Today? Approximately £10,000. Now Farmers are very keen to point out farms are not that profitable. Which does rather beg the question why farm prices have quintupled. Because it is not profit. And it is mostly not inflation. The cumulative inflation 2003-24 is approximately 75%. Not 500%. The main reason is due to multimillionaires buying land to avoid IHT.

    What we have is the haves. Wanting to ensure that tax breaks continue. To keep agricultural land prices artificially high. To protect Farmers. And sons of Farmers. At the cost of the Taxpayer. And people who want to be Farmers and don't have a Farmer as a Dad.

    Always amuses me when people who bang on about how important "market forces" are insist on manipulating markets to suit themselves.

    They just havent got a good argument.
    I watched a Sky News report the other night.
    It was disappointing because the didnt question the farmer in any depth.
    He said his farm made £19k per year.
    Now if this is true he would be better off working full time in a chicken shop.
    If he and his wife both worked full time in a chicken shop they would treble their income.
    Although I suspect that the farm made £19k per year after he had drawn maybe a £50k salary.
    Maybe after his wife has also drawn a £30k salary.
    Anyone that runs a business that makes £19k per year is surely better off selling up, and going to work for someone else.
    The reporter should clearly have asked more questions, in order to report the truth.
    That is just the start.

    If you were in a Farmer's position pre-2024, what would anyone be advised to do? Make profit and pay tax? Or spend money on assets for the Farm, safe in the knowledge that any resultant profits could be passed on tax-free to the children?

    There are Farmers out there that are genuinely struggling. Just like in any business.. But there are plenty more living a very nice life at the taxpayers' expense. And it doesn't take a financial genius to know that the guy with a £5 million farm has more options than the guy with the £500,000 farm.

    Who works for £19k rather than sell a £3 million asset that supposedly isn't producing a satisfactory return?

    When people are complaining about "only" getting an extra £2 million windfall to pass on and then paying half as much as every comparable business, I can only marvel that these people genuinely feel hard done by.

    There was a time that a rural village had 3 standard businesses. A Farm. A Pub. And a Shop.

    The Pubs are closing. Variety of reasons-an important one being cost of living and tax on working people meaning that ordinary people cannot afford it.

    The village shop? They've pretty much all gone. The only ones left within 10 miles of me are Premier Shops and Farm Shops. That would be a national chain and people getting tax breaks denied to Village shops. As a simple example, why could there not have been a subsidy for farms to supply local shops? Because, of course, without one, most farms did Diddly Squat. Heard any of these Farmers suggesting that, for example, IHT could reduce if the Child carried on the Family Farm for a set number of years? Of course not.

    I love the countryside. Rural life is great. But it would be better if the subsidies and tax breaks were given to ordinary local businesses and businessmen. People who wanted to become Farmers. Rather than just the multi-millionaires.

    However loudly privilege shouts otherwise.
  • goldongoldon Member Posts: 9,141
    "Manifest" whatever you do.........

  • legascaaclegascaac Member Posts: 198
    In 2003 an acre was valued at £3495
    Had a house that was sold on a 1/3 off acre value off house £58,000 value off land £1300 just a wee small holding so where do you get your figures from as that was in 2001 the land has trebled in value now but house is about £90,000 now as it’s just went up for sale again for £93,000
    Being from farming families a know what I’m talking about .. as that 1/3 off an acre is now worth £3,200 ..

    A take it your figures are government provided

    If you ask your local land agent to value a farm near you .. in the current market valuation..
    Then compare it to the way Labour have calculated it well different valuation ..

    Do you want to have to import all your food awe your fresh will be days old and rotten .. in the current world situation food security is a must not making small farms unworkable.. all ma cousins that’s about 12/13 farms all less than 200 acres.. have already said they won’t be growing food next year if this isn’t changed.. as that will mean every worker which they all employ 1 person each to help .. They won’t be able to keep employing them .. so they won’t be able to produce anywhere near as much without them . Simply just not worth continuing.. the young boy down the road farmer Tam had 3 farm hands .. paid them off as soon as that was announced.. as he’s selling up as well his words just no worth continuing .. government value off his 290 acre farm £5,000,000 according to there calculations land agent has a value £2,250,000 ?? And if this only affects less than 500 farms why bother in the first place.. it doesn’t it effects most farms over 90 acres as land is approximately £9,600 an acre .. so that would make the land worth £960,000 farmhouse and out buildings and machinery take a 100 acre farm over the threshold… off £1,500,000 so god knows where the government are getting there figures from .. the economy will shrink no growth.. it’s already started growth down .. it’s getting closer to that parliament getting stormed like that country next to Russia have just done and resignations demanded ..

    Only one more thing to say Thanks Labour For making food double the cost . And everyones life even more miserable if your poor ..As this will happen as you will all see ..




  • rabdenirorabdeniro Member Posts: 4,459
    Could be worse, the Tories could still be in.
  • legascaaclegascaac Member Posts: 198
    Aye true there’s none off them any good a think England could do with a national party just might be a better option than what they have ..
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,563
    rabdeniro said:

    Could be worse, the Tories could still be in.

    Even the Tories didn't take the Winter Fuel Payment off millions of freezing pensioners.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    legascaac said:

    In 2003 an acre was valued at £3495
    Had a house that was sold on a 1/3 off acre value off house £58,000 value off land £1300 just a wee small holding so where do you get your figures from as that was in 2001 the land has trebled in value now but house is about £90,000 now as it’s just went up for sale again for £93,000
    Being from farming families a know what I’m talking about .. as that 1/3 off an acre is now worth £3,200 ..

    A take it your figures are government provided

    If you ask your local land agent to value a farm near you .. in the current market valuation..
    Then compare it to the way Labour have calculated it well different valuation ..

    Do you want to have to import all your food awe your fresh will be days old and rotten .. in the current world situation food security is a must not making small farms unworkable.. all ma cousins that’s about 12/13 farms all less than 200 acres.. have already said they won’t be growing food next year if this isn’t changed.. as that will mean every worker which they all employ 1 person each to help .. They won’t be able to keep employing them .. so they won’t be able to produce anywhere near as much without them . Simply just not worth continuing.. the young boy down the road farmer Tam had 3 farm hands .. paid them off as soon as that was announced.. as he’s selling up as well his words just no worth continuing .. government value off his 290 acre farm £5,000,000 according to there calculations land agent has a value £2,250,000 ?? And if this only affects less than 500 farms why bother in the first place.. it doesn’t it effects most farms over 90 acres as land is approximately £9,600 an acre .. so that would make the land worth £960,000 farmhouse and out buildings and machinery take a 100 acre farm over the threshold… off £1,500,000 so god knows where the government are getting there figures from .. the economy will shrink no growth.. it’s already started growth down .. it’s getting closer to that parliament getting stormed like that country next to Russia have just done and resignations demanded ..

    Only one more thing to say Thanks Labour For making food double the cost . And everyones life even more miserable if your poor ..As this will happen as you will all see ..




    Agricultural land is totally different to land for houses. As any Farmer knows. The dream for many farmers would be to get Planning Permission to build houses. Because then the land is worth 10 times as much. The 2003 figure came from Savills. The 2024 from Farmers Weekly. Not biased politicians (of all flavours). Or equally biased farmers.

    A farm in an estate worth less than £1 million will not attract IHT. For most farming families (spouse and 1+ kids) it is not difficult to avoid paying any IHT on a Farm where the total estate value is under £3 million. And every farmer who believes otherwise is deluded. That is the reason for the massive disparity. The difference between £1 million and £3 million

    The Govt are getting their figures from tax experts. I don't think tax experts are the best at farming. Any more than I would rely on a farmer for tax. Every other industry adapts to change. If the worst thing Farmers face is getting a perk reduced to an extra £2 million for IHT compared to everyone else and then paying half what everyone else pays, guess what? I have zero sympathy.

    If farms get sold, why should that cause food shortages? The current Farmers have vast experience as to how to maximise profits. Quite simply, by selecting correct crops, animals and yields. Why would any new owner be any different? Don't you think people spending £millions on farms want to make money too? Or do you believe that agricultural land won't continue to be used for agriculture?

    And the idea of food from abroad being manky. Is this 1760? And growth-you do know that agriculture is less than 1% of our economy, right?

    I started this thread with a very specific title. For a very specific reason.

    Farmers enjoy perks that no other industry has (with the probable exception of politicians). And one of those perks has been reduced. Not removed. Reduced.

    Farmers can say all they like about they have "nothing to lose". But they do. In particular:-

    1. They have massive assets; and
    2. They enjoy massive tax advantages

    Farmers have always been very good at making a noise. Very effective, too. But, ironically, are always believing that the grass is greener on the other side. I'd love to know how much Brexit has cost the average Farmer. Because it is a lot.

    What do they have to lose? They are in danger of having to live like the rest of us.

  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,563
    edited November 20
    'They are in danger of having to live like the rest of us.'

    That's harsh. Proper farmers and by that I don't mean the landed gentry or uber rich that employ others to do the work, but proper farmers, work exceptionally hard. Very long hours in all weather, no time off sick, no holidays, on call 24/7 during lambing/calving season.

    I know two farmers very well, one now works as a gardener because they had to sell the farm as it wasn't making any money, he was left with enough to buy a flat. The other works as a fencer as farming doesn't pay (they have a small cattle farm), his wife works as a cleaner to makes ends meet. In neither case did farming provide them with a £50K salary a year and their wives with £30K a year. Not even close. They farmed or still farm because they were born into it, but they sold up or diversified because it simply doesn't pay.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    edited November 20
    Enut said:

    'They are in danger of having to live like the rest of us.'

    That's harsh. Proper farmers and by that I don't mean the landed gentry or uber rich that employ others to do the work, but proper farmers, work exceptionally hard. Very long hours in all weather, no time off sick, no holidays, on call 24/7 during lambing/calving season.

    I know two farmers very well, one now works as a gardener because they had to sell the farm as it wasn't making any money, he was left with enough to buy a flat. The other works as a fencer as farming doesn't pay (they have a small cattle farm), his wife works as a cleaner to makes ends meet. In neither case did farming provide them with a £50K salary a year and their wives with £30K a year. Not even close. They farmed or still farm because they were born into it, but they sold up or diversified because it simply doesn't pay.

    But this is part of the big lie being told by the Press.

    I don't doubt that the majority of Farmers-the vast majority of what you call "Proper Farmers" work hard. Although I think a considerable majority of self-employed business owners have the same working conditions.

    And, to take this a little further, a considerable majority of Farmers do "live like the rest of us". They did under the last Conservative Govt. And they still do under this Labour Govt.

    The only people being asked to pay more tax are those ranging from people with no wife or kids with more than £1 million in assets. And people with a wife and 1 or more kids with more than £3 million in assets. And, at worst case scenario, only charged at half rate on the "more than" bit.

    The people you mention are not affected by the changes. At all. But lots of people in their position are being whipped up by the very people you refer to as "the landed gentry or uber rich". Being told it is the average farmer being picked on. Which is not true. It is the wealthiest farmers getting ordinary farmers to fight their battles for them.

    Farmers are welcome to argue that £3 million these days does not mean you are uber rich. And someone living in an expensive part of London, or a big house in the suburbs would probably agree. Thing is-they get hit with a big tax bill.
  • legascaaclegascaac Member Posts: 198
    Should farmers as ma cousin said no pay 40% like the rest off us do on there house only like everyone else
    As that’s fair but taxing there ground is just stealing.. lots off people going to lose there jobs over this .. so more out off work more benefits to pay out .. inflation rises .. prices go up .. economy shrinks .. they’re going to destroy us .. as a country..kier Stalin and his mob off idiots
    Labour are unfit to govern.. they ain’t going to fix the country they’re going to **** it . Its already stated no growth infatuation up 0.6 % in 2 months
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,442
    legascaac said:

    Should farmers as ma cousin said no pay 40% like the rest off us do on there house only like everyone else
    As that’s fair but taxing there ground is just stealing.. lots off people going to lose there jobs over this .. so more out off work more benefits to pay out .. inflation rises .. prices go up .. economy shrinks .. they’re going to destroy us .. as a country..kier Stalin and his mob off idiots
    Labour are unfit to govern.. they ain’t going to fix the country they’re going to **** it . Its already stated no growth infatuation up 0.6 % in 2 months

    £325,000
    For a normal person, the inheritance tax (IHT) allowance is £325,000, known as the nil-rate band. The standard IHT rate is 40% for anything over this threshold

    For farmers, the first £1 million of combined business and agricultural assets is fully exempt from inheritance tax. However, assets exceeding this threshold will receive a 50% relief, leading to an effective tax rate of 20% on amounts above £1 million

    For a couple this figure can increase to £3million as per the above articles.
  • Bean81Bean81 Member Posts: 608
    Good to see another tax loophole being closed.
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