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People abandoning the 20:30 "Mini" in favour of 17:30-19:30 equivalent games here and elsewhere?
MynaFrett
Member Posts: 788
This has been prompted by the 20:30 £5.50 Mini missing its £1250 gtd and the 18:30 £5.50 £800 gtd bounty hunter clearing £1000. I feel like the schedule would benefit from being tweaked and the Mini in particular being brought forward to an earlier start time. I feel like the Mini is a nice tournament with a good structure but that means it's a late finish if you make final two tables and you can end up having a really late night, not quite make the final table and not make any significant profit. I think casual players are looking at the £1250 gtd for the mini then seeing that the 18:30 £5.50 BH is clearing £1000 anyway and are choosing to play the one that starts two hours earlier. I honestly feel like even a 19:30 start for the mini could increase numbers and get players playing both of those tournaments instead of players choosing to just play the earlier one. It might even bring players back who have a £5-£10 buy-in range and are choosing to play those stakes on some other sites which offer earlier start and finish times for the equivalent games.
In general I feel like the majority of us as casual or semi-serious players on Sky would prefer to get started at least an hour earlier and finish an hour earlier and the schedule could be better organised with more of the slower blind level tournaments (12 and 10 minute blinds) being brought forward and the faster (7 minute and 5 minute blinds) coming after those.
I think the Unibet schedule, for example and comparison, offers casual players the chance to start at 17:00/17:30 play 4/5/6/7/8 tournaments if they like, make some final tables, maybe even win a tournament and still be tucked up and sound asleep by midnight. They have all of their 12-10 minute blind level games at the start of the evening, the 5 minute blind games in the middle and some 3 minute blind games at the end. It's also very deliberately arranged so that all of the popular tournaments in that evening window conclude around the same time. They have estimated duration of tournaments displayed in the lobby so that casual players can see that they can play x,y,z MTT, final table them and not be late to bed for work in the morning.
I know it's always been 20:00 for the Main and 20:30 Mini on Sky. The Main suffers less during the week because it has more of the semi-serious and serious grinders but I do think the mini is suffering with that 20:30 start time during the week these days with the competition out there now at that price point and also offering earlier starts and finishes for casual players.
Current schedule for 11 Sky games I consider playing during a session -
18:00 Main "semi" satellite
18:15 £2.20 rebuy (5 minute blinds)
18:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
19:00 £7.70 BH (7 minute blinds)
19:15 £5.50 rebuy BH (7 minute blinds)
19:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
20:00 £33 Main (12 minute blinds)
20:30 £5.50 Mini (10 minute blinds)
20:45 £22 Mega stack BH (10 minute blinds)
21:00 £9.90 BH (9 minute blinds)
21:30 £3.30 reload BH (5 minute blinds)
Altered schedule for same 11 games to better accommodate blind level length and offer earlier finish to session -
17:30 Main "semi" satellite
17:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
18:00 £9.90 BH (9 minute blinds)
18:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
19:00 £33 Main (12 minute blinds)
19:30 £5.50 Mini (10 minute blinds)
19:45 £22 Mega stack BH (10 minute blinds)
20:00 £7.70 BH (7 minute blinds)
20:15 £5.50 rebuy BH (7 minute blinds)
20:30 £3.30 reload BH (5 minute blinds)
21:00 £2.20 rebuy (5 minute blinds)
What do people think? Do you think that the schedule would benefit (and the Mini in particular) from earlier start and finish times? Would you prefer a schedule more like the one I proposed here or maybe you would tweak things in a different way or leave it alone completely?
In general I feel like the majority of us as casual or semi-serious players on Sky would prefer to get started at least an hour earlier and finish an hour earlier and the schedule could be better organised with more of the slower blind level tournaments (12 and 10 minute blinds) being brought forward and the faster (7 minute and 5 minute blinds) coming after those.
I think the Unibet schedule, for example and comparison, offers casual players the chance to start at 17:00/17:30 play 4/5/6/7/8 tournaments if they like, make some final tables, maybe even win a tournament and still be tucked up and sound asleep by midnight. They have all of their 12-10 minute blind level games at the start of the evening, the 5 minute blind games in the middle and some 3 minute blind games at the end. It's also very deliberately arranged so that all of the popular tournaments in that evening window conclude around the same time. They have estimated duration of tournaments displayed in the lobby so that casual players can see that they can play x,y,z MTT, final table them and not be late to bed for work in the morning.
I know it's always been 20:00 for the Main and 20:30 Mini on Sky. The Main suffers less during the week because it has more of the semi-serious and serious grinders but I do think the mini is suffering with that 20:30 start time during the week these days with the competition out there now at that price point and also offering earlier starts and finishes for casual players.
Current schedule for 11 Sky games I consider playing during a session -
18:00 Main "semi" satellite
18:15 £2.20 rebuy (5 minute blinds)
18:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
19:00 £7.70 BH (7 minute blinds)
19:15 £5.50 rebuy BH (7 minute blinds)
19:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
20:00 £33 Main (12 minute blinds)
20:30 £5.50 Mini (10 minute blinds)
20:45 £22 Mega stack BH (10 minute blinds)
21:00 £9.90 BH (9 minute blinds)
21:30 £3.30 reload BH (5 minute blinds)
Altered schedule for same 11 games to better accommodate blind level length and offer earlier finish to session -
17:30 Main "semi" satellite
17:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
18:00 £9.90 BH (9 minute blinds)
18:30 £5.50 BH (10 minute blinds)
19:00 £33 Main (12 minute blinds)
19:30 £5.50 Mini (10 minute blinds)
19:45 £22 Mega stack BH (10 minute blinds)
20:00 £7.70 BH (7 minute blinds)
20:15 £5.50 rebuy BH (7 minute blinds)
20:30 £3.30 reload BH (5 minute blinds)
21:00 £2.20 rebuy (5 minute blinds)
What do people think? Do you think that the schedule would benefit (and the Mini in particular) from earlier start and finish times? Would you prefer a schedule more like the one I proposed here or maybe you would tweak things in a different way or leave it alone completely?
Comments
I think what @MynaFrett says would benefit the poker population on this site and the business imho
sometimes I have later starts or can get a lift so can sleep in a bit but if not I cant really play until 1-2am that often and then get up for work at say 6.30am. if the games were finishing at say 10-11pm instead it would definitely make things more viable.
The sunday majors 110 and 11 as mentioned finish far too late for casuals. 2-3am stuff is pretty wild specially for small field tournaments.
but 7 @ 7 at 8, & 9 @ 9 at 6 don't quite have the same impact
I do wonder though in all seriousness if I move to another country I know I wont be able to play on sky but will I be able to post?
just when the UK becomes a nuclear wasteland and all its people get enslaved I like to think that I could post on here just to say I was right and you were wrong etc.
Nice well thought out starter post with decent research and thought put therein.
I agree the mini starts and finishes too late for me personally most days.
The thought of changing the time doesn't appeal to me though as i see it as a flag ship type of event and the start time is set in stone.
If there was a demand for a higher guarantee at say 19:30, I would think the (newish ) 19:30 would be getting higher numbers.
As for the 18:30 , I kept an eye on it when the guarantee dropped and for a couple of weeks and it overshot its target more often than not, so I reckon it could survive with a higher guarantee , ive not been monitoring it of late tho so that may have changed.
My thoughts anyhow.
As for this bit I hadn't even realised that MTT existed until today when I was having a closer look at the schedule. I've never played it and I've probably never noticed it because I honestly just ignore all of the smaller gtd stuff (apart from the £2.20 £300 gtd rebuy which I sometimes play but not that often really and would be more inclined to play it towards the end of a session rather than at the start). Technically I shouldn't have put that 19:30 BH on the list of games I play but the intention was to highlight the time slots and show that nothing would need to be axed, just moved around.
With that said I disagree slightly that a lack of uptake so far in that 19:30 is necessarily indicative of a lack of interest but more likely a lack of knowledge of its existence or lack of enthusiasm for the guarantee. I feel like most casual players will scan a lobby for the games which match their buy-in requirements and for the bigger guarantees but will mostly just ignore (relatively) low guarantees. This is going to be even more true if they only want to play between 2 and 8 games in a session and maybe across two/three/four different sites. As a casual/semi-serious player that's what I do as well. I know some players like to play some lower gtd stuff because it ensures the player pools are smaller, they FT and win more often but I do feel like those players are in the minority and more players will be like myself and just dismiss the £300 gtd stuff (for example) without a second glance, especially those £5, £11 and £22 games with such low gtd. I suspect a lot of those games are mostly being played by the guys who want to grind 15/20/25 Sky games in a session but I could be wrong.
I take your point about not wanting to move the Mini and seeing it as flagship and set in stone but I'm sure a 19:30 £5.50 BH given at least an £800 gtd and highlighted as such in the lobby would very quickly start to pull in the 18:30 numbers and then Mini numbers and prize pool and beyond that in time. I think that could be the case even if the mini persisted in the 20:30 slot. I do firmly believe though that if the Main and the Mini were both moved to 19:00 and 19:30 it wouldn't take long for participation to exceed the current levels in the existing time slots. Of course, Sky Poker will have people qualified to analyse these things and I'm just going on a bit of gut instinct and personal preference without any real knowledge but I think a lot of us so far seem to be in agreement. @HUGHMANS said he only plays the the turbo versions of the mini on the Tuesday and Saturday and the others go too late. Participation in those mini's compared to the others seems to suggest he is not alone.
I just read back and I've misquoted HUGHMANS a bit there, he was actually referring to the mains and he didn't say he only plays the turbo's but that he always plays the turbo's. Apologies.
I've sent this thread up to the Poker Manager.
Keep the feedback coming.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I certainly don't make decisions around these things, but I thought I'd add something which caught my eye, & which nobody has mentioned.
The regular Minis have guarantees of £1,250 & £1,500, & in recent weeks they have missed guarantee as often - maybe more often - than they have hit guarantee.
Compare that with Fridays, which is still a £5.50 entry, but it's a Rebuy & has a £3,000 guarantee, which is at least twice the guarantees on the other Minis.
Here's the Prize pools it has made the last 4 weeks. (I've excluded the 2 weeks of UKOPS.)
18th October £3,740
25th October £3,750
15th November £3,390
22nd November £3,740
I've not run the numbers, but if I had to guess, and if we exclude Friday's, the non-Rebuy Minis prize pools average around £1,300, give or take a hundo or so.
For balance, there is a competing argument that many of our "smaller" or less well 'rolled players don't want or cant afford to throw unlimited rebuys & an add-on, & so are arguably disadvantaged. And if every night were a Rebuy & Add-on, it would double or triple - or even more - the nightly cost.
I think the @MynaFrett suggestions are very good. In part, because they would suit me. But, at least in part, because people who play poker have changed, too.
Lots of people talk about how people want quicker games. Without fully appreciating that there are reasons behind this.
15-20 years ago the average age of people playing poker was a lot lower than it is today. A student, or a young man, can play until 2 am and work/study the next day. Not so easy for a 60-year-old. Neither is it easy to concentrate for as long when you get older.
When I started out in poker there were thousands of youngsters thinking it would be easy to play poker for a living. Now? In the UK, tens-a few hundred at most.
If a poker site was starting from scratch, or primarily looking to attract new players, I think the OP schedule is a considerable improvement.
But-and it is a big but-Sky poker is not like other sites. Its great strength is its ability to retain, not attract. And loyalty might say it likes change-but it often does not. What works elsewhere might not work here.
What would I do? Look towards equalising the mini/earlier prize pools. Perhaps one day a week changing the time of the Mini. One day a week making more MTTs 5 or 7 minute blinds.
Because Sky needs to ensure change is in its own interests.
PS. Thanks for an interesting and thought-provoking post, @MynaFrett
I only ever play the mini on a Friday.
I dont think the buy ins have changed since I started playing on Sky.
Which is not a bad thing, when you consider the cost of living, inflation etc.
The prize pools and guarantees are obviously an attraction for many players, but not all.
I dont think you can only cater for the players with smaller bank rolls, you must surely provide a balance.
I am not crticising Sky.
You are between the devil, and the deep blue sea.
What some players criticise others will applaud.
The poster rightly says that there are a number of alternatives for those with smaller bankrolls, as well as those who wish to get to bed early.
I am basing my opinion on the massive success of a Friday mini, compared to the others.
The number of runners every Friday show that the buy in is not an impediment.
I think that you might benefit from moving the tenner mini, from Sunday to Saturday, and introduce another £5 rebuy mini on a Sunday.
I would play them, and not be concerned if you moved the starting times.
A couple of years ago I would have been anti rebuy-addons and also anti turbo so I know how some players will feel about that.
I believe it's primarily the finishing time of those non-turbo minis on Monday/Wednesday/Thursday which is harming participation. The guarantee drops, interest drops off a bit then people look for alternatives and the numbers don't recover for those days. I'm repeating myself now but there are games out there for £5 starting between 17:00-19:30 which I think have become more attractive for casual players during the week. They might be saying "right I'm going to play these £5 MTT starting on these sites at 17:30, 18:00, 18:30, 19:00, 19:30 and that'll be me done for the night. I'll play the 18:30 BH on Sky but no need to play the Sky mini tonight because it goes too late and it also starts an hour after I've finished registering my other tournaments. I'll just add the Sky mini on a Tuesday and a Saturday because they finish around the same time as the 19:00 I play on this site and the 19:30 I play on that site."
I believe the better solution is to bring the mini (and the main) in line with the start times of those other MTT people are playing elsewhere and also playing here if you look at participation in the 18:30 £5.50 BH. That tournament could continue to get even closer to mini numbers and that's with an £800 guarantee, no fanfare and no added pull of the FTJ...
I've only ever had a small FTJ myself and also a couple of near misses recently. Those times when you are going deep in the main and the mini simultaneously are exhilarating and unique to Sky Poker. That was the main reason I brought Sky games back into my schedule recently. The FTJ is a real selling point in my opinion and it certainly gets some of the regs with high ABI's flicking in the mini as probably the only £5 MTT they would entertain anywhere (HUGHMANS said as much in their post as well). It also serves as an extra draw for lower stakes players to try and get rolled to be able to play both the main and the mini without having to rely on the satellites (I'm an example of that). I believe it becomes an even greater draw and participation increases if the main and the mini also start at 19:00 and 19:30 respectively.
Failing that, if there is a reluctance to reorder the schedule to offer earlier start times and finishes with better placement of the non-turbo and turbo tournaments then making all mains 10 minute blinds and all minis 7 minute blinds might (should) also increase participation even if they remain in the 20:00 and 20:30 slots.
19:00/19:30 starts > 20:00/20:30 starts with faster structures > the status quo
.....or scrap it and have the Late Reg Semi as the only one, which would be a shame
.....i suppose you could introduce a Turbo Semi, but I think the Semi's work well as they are, and for me, is the only way I ever play a Main.
Completely agree regarding the mini.
I generally start playing late afternoon,a few sit and goes and sats for the main then a few early mtt's usually the 630pm £5.50 and the freerolls and sometimes 7@7 .
I only usually play the mini if I am playing the main and I (unusually) haven't busted in the first 30 mins and often when I play it and run deep I have lost interest by that point and its the only table I have open.
Just to add something else into the mix how about some 1 seat for 5 entries sats for the mini ,7@7 and possibly 9@9 and scrap the megastack sats that never run during the week just a thought for the lower rolled players.