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7-6 off utg debate

Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
edited April 2010 in Poker Chat
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
iklejack Small blind  £0.25 £0.25 £50.20
badladgs22 Big blind  £0.50 £0.75 £19.50
  Your hole cards
  • 7
  • 6
     
Eagle26 Call  £0.50 £1.25 £63.22
MOREBOY Fold     
ChirpyChip Call  £0.50 £1.75 £63.83
Macca1985 Call  £0.50 £2.25 £50.00
iklejack Call  £0.25 £2.50 £49.95
badladgs22 Check     
Flop
   
  • 7
  • K
  • 6
     
iklejack Check     
badladgs22 Check     
Eagle26 Bet  £2.50 £5.00 £60.72
ChirpyChip Call  £2.50 £7.50 £61.33
Macca1985 Fold     
iklejack Call  £2.50 £10.00 £47.45
badladgs22 Fold     
Turn
   
  • 6
     
iklejack Check     
Eagle26 Check     
ChirpyChip Bet  £7.50 £17.50 £53.83
iklejack Fold     
Eagle26 Call  £7.50 £25.00 £53.22
River
right guys, this was a hand that occured not too long ago, and after the hand i was criticized for the limp utg with the 7-6 off by chirpychip (a well known, good respected player) and we debated it for quite a while and he asked me to go and ask some of the bigger hitters on here if my play was horrible-so i am! ... anyways reasons for my limp were this, the table had been very passive and since i joined i was the only person pretty much creating action, a hand like 7-6 (suited or not) is a hand i like to play because any good cash player will know these are the type of hands that can take down an opponents whole stack. and from late position i would always be raising with it-as i very rarely limp into a pot. however on this occasion i got dealt it utg and wanted to see a flop so rather than muckin it or rasin here  i limped with the intention of callin a small raise - the table had been very passive so i knew that a raise and a re-raise was unlikely so was pretty confident i could get to the flop cheaply. i did and won the hand. so is this a terrible limp utg or not? i like to think as myself as a pretty reasonable player (not the greatest by any means) but a winnin player nontheless. i very rarely limp as many of the players who have shared tables with me will know, but on this occasion i wanted to get to the flop cheaply - am i wrong?? if so ill happily apologies to the bloke but imo i dont think there is much wrong here
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Comments

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    Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2010
    mucked the hand history up sorry, try again

    istory #248473970 (00:41 06/04/2010)
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    iklejack Small blind  £0.25 £0.25 £50.20
    badladgs22 Big blind  £0.50 £0.75 £19.50
      Your hole cards
    • 7
    • 6
         
    Eagle26 Call  £0.50 £1.25 £63.22
    MOREBOY Fold     
    ChirpyChip Call  £0.50 £1.75 £63.83
    Macca1985 Call  £0.50 £2.25 £50.00
    iklejack Call  £0.25 £2.50 £49.95
    badladgs22 Check     
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • K
    • 6
         
    iklejack Check     
    badladgs22 Check     
    Eagle26 Bet  £2.50 £5.00 £60.72
    ChirpyChip Call  £2.50 £7.50 £61.33
    Macca1985 Fold     
    iklejack Call  £2.50 £10.00 £47.45
    badladgs22 Fold     
    Turn
       
    • 6
         
    iklejack Check     
    Eagle26 Check     
    ChirpyChip Bet  £7.50 £17.50 £53.83
    iklejack Fold     
    Eagle26 Call  £7.50 £25.00 £53.22
    River
       
    • 4
         
    Eagle26 Bet  £18.75 £43.75 £34.47
    ChirpyChip Call  £18.75 £62.50 £35.08
    Eagle26 Show
    • 7
    • 6
       
    ChirpyChip Show
    • 6
    • A
       
    Eagle26 Win Full House, 6s and 7s £60.70  
  • Options
    ChirpyChipChirpyChip Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    Dn't seek apology!
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    if the table is passive then raise and just steal the blinds like crazy. I personally dont like open limping, just be careful not to be results orientated eh... you won the hand THIS time...
  • Options
    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    also i dont like how you played the hand, why do you slow down when your hand improves on the turn? I think you got minimal value for your monster tbh.
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    BrownnDogBrownnDog Member Posts: 729
    edited April 2010
    'limping in' in ANY position in a 6-max game is an absolutely horrible play. If you are going to enter a pot you want to take control of it straight away, and control the action on each subsequent betting round. 

    Reasons why we raise:

    1. Manipulate the size of the pot
    2. For deception
    3. For information
    4. For value
    5. To bluff
    6. For 'advanced' forms of pot control
    7. To gain a free card on a later round
    8. To gain position 
    9. To balance our raising ranges.
    10. For isolation

    How does limping in achieve any of the above? If you are limping in with a certain range from a certain position and then open folding to anything more than a 'small raise' then you are simply playing in an exploitable fashion and any good player will pick up on this and punish you for it.

    You say the table is passive. Isn't this a good enough reason than any to raise?!?!




    All the best



    Browndog
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    DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,927
    edited April 2010

    I wouldn't do it personally.....But wouldn't say it was terrible really its only 50p

    Theres easier ways to win big pots - Its just a nothing play, isnt great isnt bad, works sometimes.

    I dunno not alot to say about it really apart from raise turn!!! lol


  • Options
    ChirpyChipChirpyChip Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    Thanks Guys!
  • Options
    ChirpyChipChirpyChip Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    No hard feelings anyways.. just silly poker debate....
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    Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2010

    fair enough im wrong, my bad. cheers for replys. chirpy if i see ya dtd ill buy ya a pint lol

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    ChirpyChipChirpyChip Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    Don't Be Silly Geeza... we here to talk about these things and help each other! What the forum is all about!!
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    OI dont listen to brownndog him and chirpy are brothers!! obvs just sticking up for each other
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    Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2010
    this is actually a really stupid thread and cant believe ive posted it lol in the heat of the moment i was so sure that i had done nothin wrong and i was right (egg on my face!!) but thinkin about it now and reading the replys i totally see im wrong and im a big enough bloke to hold my hands up! I also really did butcher the hand didnt i lol??? why did check call the turn??? strange!! ah well lessons to be learnt. just wanna clear this up though i aint a limpin machine and browndog whilst i appreciate your time and effort in your post on why not too limp its stuff i actually do know (obviously not as well as u) so im kinda of surprised by myself for postin this and even tryin to defend it - ive had one too many tonight!! thanks again. gl at the tables - Andy
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    You have an amazing name ;)
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    Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2010
    actually changed my mind im very happy i posted this thread, because its simply made me realise im no where near as good as i think i am and i have some major leaks in my game!  (im writing this now as ive just dropped a buy-in at Nl50 with second pair 3 barreled him and he had trips-convinced he was drawin-quality play and readin abilitys eagle!!) but anyway just analysing this one particular hand as opened my eyes a bit. as much as the criticism hurts my pride its definatly gonna help me improve my game! and judging by how how ive played tonight it needs alot of improvin!
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    keep posting hands
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    Eagle26Eagle26 Member Posts: 431
    edited April 2010
    well just sat down at the table with browndog at nl200 and NEVER limped once lol learnin already - obviously not about bankroll management as im not rolled to play there, oh well.  made a nice little profit anyways but wont be sittin at those tables again in a hurry a few bad beats or bad plays and ur bankroll can be destroyed so got out of there whilst the goin was good - only sat there to prove to myself i can play against these boys! (although i will point out, i do have a fair bit in my account to allow me to have a little crack at this level-im not a complete loony!) Quickly back on the subject of limpin, browndog u say never limp ever into a pot, which i totally agree with by the way - the amount of limpin at this table was huge, players limpin into pots all the time, so i guess there is players as bad as me at these levels too?  anyway as im in the mood for postin hands - was this the right shove here with the queens?? obviously i got lucky and come from behind on the turn, but was ahead slightly pre-flop. would all of u big hitters just shove here or call and take a flop, hopin its a low board-then shove?? reckon he called coz he had read this thread earlier lol ...
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Eagle26 Small blind  £1.00 £1.00 £222.20
    petebryn Big blind  £2.00 £3.00 £270.74
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
         
    BrownnDog Fold     
    style2737 Fold     
    xxxx Raise  £6.00 £9.00 £242.14
    GliterBabe Fold     
    Eagle26 Raise  £17.00 £26.00 £205.20
    petebryn Fold     
    xxxx Raise  £60.00 £86.00 £182.14
    Eagle26 All-in  £205.20 £291.20 £0.00
    xxxx Call  £157.20 £448.40 £24.94
    Eagle26 Show
    • Q
    • Q
       
    xxxx Show
    • K
    • A
       
    Flop
       
    • A
    • 7
    • 2
         
    Turn
       
    • Q
         
    River
       
    • 3
         
    Eagle26 Win Three Queens £446.60  £446.60
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    EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited April 2010
    I think on a 25p / 50p table we can try and see a few cheap flops (I know you should play the same game regardless of the blinds, but really, that's just ****).
    As long as you are prepared to
    1. Fold to a substantive raise
    2. Walk away from missing the flop (including gut-shots)
    3. Understand that when you get trips, your kicker is poor
    then I see no reason not to limp on low blind cash tables. In my experience, you tend to win more with 67 than AA (not more often, more cash) as nobody expects 67 in the pot.
    As for Chirpy, he had the option to raise - he's losing with his trip 6s to a lot of hands that have limped or blinded in. If you don't raise and someone cathces a monster, I don't feel you have any right to complain.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 161,171
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:
    'limping in' in ANY position in a 6-max game is an absolutely horrible play. If you are going to enter a pot you want to take control of it straight away, and control the action on each subsequent betting round.  Reasons why we raise: 1. Manipulate the size of the pot 2. For deception 3. For information 4. For value 5. To bluff 6. For 'advanced' forms of pot control 7. To gain a free card on a later round 8. To gain position  9. To balance our raising ranges. 10. For isolation How does limping in achieve any of the above? If you are limping in with a certain range from a certain position and then open folding to anything more than a 'small raise' then you are simply playing in an exploitable fashion and any good player will pick up on this and punish you for it. You say the table is passive. Isn't this a good enough reason than any to raise?!?! All the best Browndog
    Posted by BrownnDog
    Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker.

    It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better.

  • Options
    DazlerDazler Member Posts: 3,970
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate:
    In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker. It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better.
    Posted by Tikay10
    interesting debate i can understand that limping with a hand like that shows weakness imidiately but i do this myself on the odd ocassion. Sometimes just to see a cheap flop. After reading the points to something that i just put down to bad luck or luck on how you look at it. But has made me think on my play and the basis of how to play good poker not ok poker. I shall ponder on this guys thanks for the brain check. Its always good to get these type of threads cos it reminds us how bad we play sometimes, which is a good thing in my opinion.
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    DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,927
    edited April 2010

    Nice pot  Eagle !!!!

    If only I had the bottle to go an play up there......


    I have the br(Well at least for nl100, maybe 200 dependin on how tight u are)....but to me, I dont care if I had 100k in my account, losing 200 quid is losing 200 quid!

    People say if u are rolled for it, a £300 bad beat doesnt hurt, COME OFF IT!!!! ITS 60 £5 NOTES!!!
    Maybe i'll stop feeling like that if/when I get used to it?

    Back to the old limping debate, at nl50 its never that bad an option, you know technically its not great - but playing 100+ bb's deep - its never gonna be THAT bad surely. In the example you gave it's the position I dont like, not the limp - but then again if ur in late position Id prefer a raise as you have the position....so yeh...fold or raise. lol - but limping in with 67 is probably one of the smallest mistakes ur gonna make - dnt lose any kip over it


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