Yeh poor play to limp, but we all do it sometimes (people who live in glass houses) but i personnally think chirpychips play was worse, limping with terrible rag aces with a five way pot, and then calling a half pot raise with bottom pair - or am i wrong??
The point to make here is that there were several limpers into the pot. That's several players with likely poor hands hoping to hit miracle cards. This happens a lot on Sky poker. Having read a couple of posts above, I am seriously thinking of trying out a "no limp" strategy in some cash, and see what happens.
The point to make here is that there were several limpers into the pot. That's several players with likely poor hands hoping to hit miracle cards. This happens a lot on Sky poker. Having read a couple of posts above, I am seriously thinking of trying out a "no limp" strategy in some cash, and see what happens. Posted by Eyeman
In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : Every single inexperienced player should print that off, & paste it onto a Word Document, then memorise it, or have it next to the PC when playing Online Poker. It's a brilliant precis of everything that's wrong with serial-limping, a fault so many newbies share, & why a Raise is so much better. Posted by Tikay10
serial-limping=limping into every/almost every pot with any/every 2 cards,im guessing.?..so therefore the odd limp(with ur fav hand out of position) probably aint that bad,especially 'when you hit and get paid big'...correct me if im wrong...
We all agree limping is 'bad' but, i have sat at the tables, or seen most players at tables on here at some time or another, and i can state as fact, without exception including poker analysts, seen everyone of them limp into pots at some time or another, (and thats not with AA,KK etc hoping for a re-raise) Yes we all know its wrong, but everyone still does it, maybe not always but always sometimes - no matter what people say. I suppose its like the sign saying 'wet paint' and we go and touch it when we really shoulnt lol.
the second bunch of replys on here have made me feel alot better and not such a complete muppet, like i said last night im not known for limping i very rarely do it, but 7-6 is a hand i like and utg i thought a flat call wasnt such a horrible play on a 6 seater on a passive table because if someone was to raise say £2 for example i would happily call that and take the flop knowing the guy prob has a big pair or ak/aq and could try and take his stack if i did hit . if i raised from this position with this hand (say 3xbb-£2) and someone is sittin there with a big hand, they are gonna raise-probably to about a fiver, so its costing me five quid to see the flop rather than 2 quid - not the best example i know, but just trying to let u know what i was thinkin with the utg limp. also something i didnt pick up on last night, was chirpy also LIMPED so he is just as much to blame for the outcome of this hand as i am lol kind of surprising after how much he critizised me for limpin! i was watching some high stakes poker this morning on dvd and they were playin 9 handed $500,000 minimum buy-in high stakes cash - players like Brunson, Esfandiari, Farha, Hellmuth, Antonius etc some of the best players in world and too be honest although there wasnt much limpin, now and again they all limped into the pot at some stage! farha from early position with 7-8 (similar to my hand)! these guys would absolutly crush anyone of you on skypoker and they all occasionally limped. so are these guys wrong? are we any position to criticize there play?... once again thanks to all the replys on this thread - Andy
Im very suprised no1 has said to fold this hand utg, if the table is extremely nitty i may open raise this hand but most of the time this is a instant fold, maybe im being too nitty myself? has any1 got any good reasons to open this hand utg?
haha! told ya i had a few!! nah what i meant was that i never posted anything about chirpy also limping into the pot last night when all this kicked off....u playin tonight anyway bud? ill have a game with ya later if your on
Its quite funny really cos at end of day its eagles cash so RIGHT or WRONG he can do whatever he wants with ANY hand at all,any OBJECTIONS to this? dav
Ye Im gonna do the TKO at 7, then log off to watch Arsenal (Im holding back mi first beer till 7 to make sure I can see the match properly, wud normally be half cut by now) - then log on hopefully in time to win the velocity, then game on from there.
And yeh good point about the CC limp - but with a suited ace, again, never terrible, the position is alot better - but its stlll pretty timid stuff - anything goes in a cash game - a bloke opened shoved for 130xbb with AQ on my table other day and he got paid, some clown snapped him off with 2 jacks.
Ye Im gonna do the TKO at 7, then log off to watch Arsenal (Im holding back mi first beer till 7 to make sure I can see the match properly, wud normally be half cut by now) - then log on hopefully in time to win the velocity, then game on from there. And yeh good point about the CC limp - but with a suited ace, again, never terrible, the position is alot better - but its stlll pretty timid stuff - anything goes in a cash game - a bloke opened shoved for 130xbb with AQ on my table other day and he got paid, some clown snapped him off with 2 jacks. THE 2 EXTREMES! I'll be on to watch u at nl200 later! DOHH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
hmmmm callin 130bb with jacks, sounds like something i would do ;-) remember my amazin call with pocket 22's for £100 on an A A x board ....quality stuff lol. (i did actually get that money back off him on another table a day later-so not all bad!) as for watchin me at Nl200 tonight, aint gonna happen but ill happily sit and have a game at Nl100 if u fancy it after the footy...think barcelona are gonna rip arsenal to shreds tonight but should be a crackin game!
Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance iklejack Small blind £0.25 £0.25 £50.20 badladgs22 Big blind £0.50 £0.75 £19.50 Your hole cards 7 6 Eagle26 Call £0.50 £1.25 £63.22 MOREBOY Fold ChirpyChip Call £0.50 £1.75 £63.83 Macca1985 Call £0.50 £2.25 £50.00 iklejack Call £0.25 £2.50 £49.95 badladgs22 Check Flop 7 K 6 iklejack Check badladgs22 Check Eagle26 Bet £2.50 £5.00 £60.72 ChirpyChip Call £2.50 £7.50 £61.33 Macca1985 Fold iklejack Call £2.50 £10.00 £47.45 badladgs22 Fold Turn 6 iklejack Check Eagle26 Check ChirpyChip Bet £7.50 £17.50 £53.83 iklejack Fold Eagle26 Call £7.50 £25.00 £53.22 River right guys, this was a hand that occured not too long ago, and after the hand i was criticized for the limp utg with the 7-6 off by chirpychip (a well known, good respected player) and we debated it for quite a while and he asked me to go and ask some of the bigger hitters on here if my play was horrible-so i am! ... anyways reasons for my limp were this, the table had been very passive and since i joined i was the only person pretty much creating action, a hand like 7-6 (suited or not) is a hand i like to play because any good cash player will know these are the type of hands that can take down an opponents whole stack. and from late position i would always be raising with it-as i very rarely limp into a pot. however on this occasion i got dealt it utg and wanted to see a flop so rather than muckin it or rasin here i limped with the intention of callin a small raise - the table had been very passive so i knew that a raise and a re-raise was unlikely so was pretty confident i could get to the flop cheaply. i did and won the hand. so is this a terrible limp utg or not? i like to think as myself as a pretty reasonable player (not the greatest by any means) but a winnin player nontheless. i very rarely limp as many of the players who have shared tables with me will know, but on this occasion i wanted to get to the flop cheaply - am i wrong?? if so ill happily apologies to the bloke but imo i dont think there is much wrong here Posted by Eagle26
Hi Eagle
This hand shows the importance of position also, as i think all the money is going in if you had position, although like doh says, i think you shoulda got more in on the turn by check raising or maybe betting out pot.
However, if you had raised preflop, i believe that you woulda stacked him, regardless of position. why?, cos your hand would then look like AA on the turn if you bet all three streets or possibly AK, KQ, . With trip 6s, on that board, i know i couldn't fold.
So, limping is not ideal, for the reasons that browndog stated, although i dont fully understand, no. 6, "advanced" pot control? can someone please explain?
Thanks for an excellent post Eagle, this has made my mind up that im going to try everything i can to eradicate limping from my game.
i hope this makes sense im not too good at the technical stuff lol
In Response to 7-6 off utg debate : Hi Eagle This hand shows the importance of position also, as i think all the money is going in if you had position, although like doh says, i think you shoulda got more in on the turn by check raising or maybe betting out pot. However, if you had raised preflop, i believe that you woulda stacked him, regardless of position. why?, cos your hand would then look like AA if you bet all three streets or possibly AK, KQ, . With trip 6s, on that board, i know i couldn't fold. So, limping is not ideal, for the reasons that browndog stated, although i dont fully understand, no. 6, "advanced" pot control? can someone please explain? Thanks for an excellent post Eagle, this has made my mind up that im going to try everything i can to eradicate limping from my game. i hope this makes sense im not too good at the technical stuff lol hoggers Posted by GREGHOGG
alright Greg, yeah i know i absolutly butchered this hand, especially with the check call on the turn! everything from the limp to the way i played down the streets is kinda cringeworthy stuff, but if nothin else i can learn from it. ive always thought as myself as a decent player-rightly or wrongly! but just postin this one hand has showed me i do have some big leaks in my game that need to look at and sort out. good to know an extremly good player like yourself also can make the same mistakes! we all human and we all gonna make mistakes sometimes! learning from them is the key!
In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : alright Greg, yeah i know i absolutly butchered this hand, especially with the check call on the turn! everything from the limp to the way i played down the streets hand is kinda cringeworthy stuff, but if nothin else i can learn from it. ive always thought as myself as a decent player-rightly or wrongly! but just postin this one hand has showed me i do have some big leaks in my game that need to look at and sort out. good to know an extremly good player like yourself also can make the same mistakes! we all human and we all gonna make mistakes sometimes! just hope we can learn from them! Posted by Eagle26
lol i always make mistakes m8, you not seen my donkey play on mastercash most weeks?
And i dont think you butchered the hand, dont be so hard on yourself. you just didn't play it optimally, but i dont think there is any poker player in the world that plays EVERY hand optimally! And anyone that thinks they do isnt as good as they think they are.
it is important that we all discuss hands like this on the forum so we can all develop together regardless of what level of ability people are perceived as having and at what stage of learning this wonderful game we are.
ok this is completly off subject, but as my game is under scrutiny here this is a hand i played about a week ago. for some reason i cant find it in the hand history so im gonna have to type it out. playin Nl100 i had doubled my stack through the unlucky cottlad when i flopped trip 10's against his KK and stacked him. then won a few small pots and my amount at the table was around £260. I got dealt KK on the button, raised it up 3xbb (£4) got re-raised by the big stack in the bb (he had about £320) to £15 - i flat called this to try and disguise the strength of my hand. flop comes down something like 4 7 10 rainbow, he then check raised me. i went back over the top-he shoved all in! i kind of reluctantly called because i did fear a set of 10's (although the bet was a little strong and did look like he didnt want a call) but cards flip over and he shows Q high!! i take down a nice £520 odd pot!! is this the correct call though?? should i be layin this down?? i honestly dont know if i made the correct call here or not, a big part of my game i struggle with is spottin flopped sets. obviously it was the correct call on this occasion, but over time???
I think your limp utg with 76 is fine for the reasons you stated. It's always good to mix up your game and 76 is not really a hand you want to be open raising from first position. You didn't play the hand optimally but villians limp with A6 isn't great and his call on the flop is just disgusting.
Obviously you won a decent pot and if you hadn't hit so hard then you've only wasted 50p. Often however you will get raised (2.50 or more) and potentially have to fold. A good play to have if you have a decent stack is to limp re-raise in this spot instead of limp call/folding. Really represents a big hand and gets the opponent thinking.
On your hand above there is no way you can fold KK on that board. If can't fold to feared sets all of the time.
'limping in' in ANY position in a 6-max game is an absolutely horrible play. If you are going to enter a pot you want to take control of it straight away, and control the action on each subsequent betting round. Reasons why we raise: 1. Manipulate the size of the pot 2. For deception 3. For information 4. For value 5. To bluff 6. For 'advanced' forms of pot control 7. To gain a free card on a later round 8. To gain position 9. To balance our raising ranges. 10. For isolation How does limping in achieve any of the above? If you are limping in with a certain range from a certain position and then open folding to anything more than a 'small raise' then you are simply playing in an exploitable fashion and any good player will pick up on this and punish you for it. You say the table is passive. Isn't this a good enough reason than any to raise?!?! All the best Browndog Posted by BrownnDog
I'm desperately trying to improve my game & this is great reading. However, I don't think I really understand points 6 & 7. I'm probably just being dumb but if anyone could explain a bit more it would be greatly appreciated.
In Response to Re: 7-6 off utg debate : I'm desperately trying to improve my game & this is great reading. However, I don't think I really understand points 6 & 7. I'm probably just being dumb but if anyone could explain a bit more it would be greatly appreciated. Posted by silentbob
"Advanced pot control" is being discussed elsewhere and only Brownndog can tell us exactly what he means by that.
With regard to "gaining a free card" this is a technique generally used when you have a draw after the flop in position. If your opponent bets on a flop and you have a draw, you can fold (if you don't have the correct odds) or call or raise. The benefit of raising is that, if your opponent just calls your raise, it generally means that he will check to you on the turn. This means that, if you miss your draw, you can also check the turn and get to see the river "for free" in the hope that it will make your draw or give you a chance to bluff. The benefit of raising the flop is that it will generally cost you less than calling another bet from your opponent on the turn who may otherwise, if he puts you on a draw, generally make it too expensive to continue after the turn. The disadvantage is that it gives your opponent a chance to 3-bet you on the flop and price you out of the hand.
I would say that you can't make this play with a check-raise out of position since, if you check the turn, your opponent can still bet you off the hand.
Another advantage is that, against an opponent who is not aware of this style of play, it disguises your hand.
Comments
We all agree limping is 'bad' but, i have sat at the tables, or seen most players at tables on here at some time or another, and i can state as fact, without exception including poker analysts, seen everyone of them limp into pots at some time or another, (and thats not with AA,KK etc hoping for a re-raise) Yes we all know its wrong, but everyone still does it, maybe not always but always sometimes - no matter what people say. I suppose its like the sign saying 'wet paint' and we go and touch it when we really shoulnt lol.
also something i didnt pick up on last night, was chirpy also LIMPED so he is just as much to blame for the outcome of this hand as i am lol kind of surprising after how much he critizised me for limpin!
i was watching some high stakes poker this morning on dvd and they were playin 9 handed $500,000 minimum buy-in high stakes cash - players like Brunson, Esfandiari, Farha, Hellmuth, Antonius etc some of the best players in world and too be honest although there wasnt much limpin, now and again they all limped into the pot at some stage! farha from early position with 7-8 (similar to my hand)! these guys would absolutly crush anyone of you on skypoker and they all occasionally limped. so are these guys wrong? are we any position to criticize there play?... once again thanks to all the replys on this thread - Andy
Im very suprised no1 has said to fold this hand utg, if the table is extremely nitty i may open raise this hand but most of the time this is a instant fold, maybe im being too nitty myself? has any1 got any good reasons to open this hand utg?
haha! told ya i had a few!! nah what i meant was that i never posted anything about chirpy also limping into the pot last night when all this kicked off....u playin tonight anyway bud? ill have a game with ya later if your on
as for watchin me at Nl200 tonight, aint gonna happen but ill happily sit and have a game at Nl100 if u fancy it after the footy...think barcelona are gonna rip arsenal to shreds tonight but should be a crackin game!
This hand shows the importance of position also, as i think all the money is going in if you had position, although like doh says, i think you shoulda got more in on the turn by check raising or maybe betting out pot.
However, if you had raised preflop, i believe that you woulda stacked him, regardless of position. why?, cos your hand would then look like AA on the turn if you bet all three streets or possibly AK, KQ, . With trip 6s, on that board, i know i couldn't fold.
So, limping is not ideal, for the reasons that browndog stated, although i dont fully understand, no. 6, "advanced" pot control? can someone please explain?
Thanks for an excellent post Eagle, this has made my mind up that im going to try everything i can to eradicate limping from my game.
i hope this makes sense im not too good at the technical stuff lol
hoggers
And i dont think you butchered the hand, dont be so hard on yourself. you just didn't play it optimally, but i dont think there is any poker player in the world that plays EVERY hand optimally! And anyone that thinks they do isnt as good as they think they are.
it is important that we all discuss hands like this on the forum so we can all develop together regardless of what level of ability people are perceived as having and at what stage of learning this wonderful game we are.
playin Nl100 i had doubled my stack through the unlucky cottlad when i flopped trip 10's against his KK and stacked him. then won a few small pots and my amount at the table was around £260. I got dealt KK on the button, raised it up 3xbb (£4) got re-raised by the big stack in the bb (he had about £320) to £15 - i flat called this to try and disguise the strength of my hand. flop comes down something like 4 7 10 rainbow, he then check raised me. i went back over the top-he shoved all in! i kind of reluctantly called because i did fear a set of 10's (although the bet was a little strong and did look like he didnt want a call) but cards flip over and he shows Q high!! i take down a nice £520 odd pot!! is this the correct call though?? should i be layin this down?? i honestly dont know if i made the correct call here or not, a big part of my game i struggle with is spottin flopped sets. obviously it was the correct call on this occasion, but over time???
Obviously you won a decent pot and if you hadn't hit so hard then you've only wasted 50p. Often however you will get raised (2.50 or more) and potentially have to fold. A good play to have if you have a decent stack is to limp re-raise in this spot instead of limp call/folding. Really represents a big hand and gets the opponent thinking.
On your hand above there is no way you can fold KK on that board. If can't fold to feared sets all of the time.
"Advanced pot control" is being discussed elsewhere and only Brownndog can tell us exactly what he means by that.
With regard to "gaining a free card" this is a technique generally used when you have a draw after the flop in position.
If your opponent bets on a flop and you have a draw, you can fold (if you don't have the correct odds) or call or raise. The benefit of raising is that, if your opponent just calls your raise, it generally means that he will check to you on the turn. This means that, if you miss your draw, you can also check the turn and get to see the river "for free" in the hope that it will make your draw or give you a chance to bluff. The benefit of raising the flop is that it will generally cost you less than calling another bet from your opponent on the turn who may otherwise, if he puts you on a draw, generally make it too expensive to continue after the turn. The disadvantage is that it gives your opponent a chance to 3-bet you on the flop and price you out of the hand.
I would say that you can't make this play with a check-raise out of position since, if you check the turn, your opponent can still bet you off the hand.
Another advantage is that, against an opponent who is not aware of this style of play, it disguises your hand.