Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!

Sky_Dave

Hi all,

OK, so the glorious day has come and Omaha is here on Sky Poker. As someone who loves playing Omaha (more than No Limit Hold'em, I'll add), I'm also aware that the first few times you play it your head can spin. So here's the Omaha Strategy thread!

If you've got any questions about starting hands, putting players on hands, ranges, etc feel free to chuck it in here. Frankly I am like a massive nerd in a candy shop right now (or something), so fire away. Oh, and some good players will actually chip in too, I am sure.

Have fun.

Dave

Tikay10

Please see also the Thread below, where a lot of Omaha basics have been covered.

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3aa5c76ef1-0394-4a4b-86f1-6727bbef5c54

Sky_Dave

I was just trying to find that, Tikay - cheers!

mr_mbro

hi Dave
Can you have a look at this omana hand and give me your opinion please 

76Nivels	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.40
karlrob120	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.40
	Your hole cards	7 10 10 K
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£4.52
mr_mbro	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£16.73
MereNovice	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£3.93
mcduff21	Fold
76Nivels	Call		£0.02	£0.20	£1.38
karlrob120	Check
Flop
		5 10 4
76Nivels	Check
karlrob120	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Check
mr_mbro	Bet		£0.20	£0.40	£16.53
MereNovice	Fold
76Nivels	Fold
karlrob120	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£4.32
Turn
		K
DOHHHHHHH	Check
mr_mbro	Bet		£0.60	£1.20	£15.93
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£0.60	£1.80	£3.72
River
		J
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£1.80	£3.60	£1.92
mr_mbro	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Show	6 3 Q Q
DOHHHHHHH	Win		£3.51		£5.43

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Thanks
col

Flowers999

why did you fold

Sky_Dave

Right, bear with me if I miss something here (not too good at thinking and eating at the same time), but here goes. We'll take a look at the hand street by street.

1) Preflop. 

An alright starting hand, but nothing more. You're looking to flop the world (top set or a straight) for cheap. Personally I call sometimes, fold others depending on position. Here I fold as I have too many players behind me to act. 

One thing to avoid here is to hope to flop a flush. Too many times when you flop the ten high flush you'll run into a bigger one. Play as close to the nuts as possible, otherwise you might end up paying off a lot of times. To illustrate the point, what world of hurt would you have been in if DOHHHHHH had Qs6s in their hand rather than Qh6h and it comes all spades on the flop!

2) On the flop.

Badda-bing! Top set and a relatively dry board. OK, there's a flush draw possible and some of those kooky little 67xx kind of things to worry about, but really this is about as good as it gets with your starting hand. Potting it defines your hand a fair bit, but you have the current nuts and you want to get some money in there to price out those draws.

3) On the turn.

Relatively speaking, a decent turn card. If they have something like Kc-Xc-xx in their hand they've improved to one pair and a flush draw, and it might have even done something nuts like helped a hand like KTxx. That *would* be nice. Anyway, it's not a club which is good and it doesn't complete any straights. Brings a few more straight draws about, but unless you just got two outered, you are still rocking. Pot seems right. 

A more conservative line might be to check/call the turn in a bid to control the pot size. Personally I don't think this is one of those situations. Too many cards in the deck are scare cards which he can either use to represent a hand (i.e. try and push you off by bluffing with a worse hand) or slows down those hands that could give you a ton of action (i.e. KT, 54, etc). I think betting here is MUCH better.

4) At the River.

How does this change anything? Well, some straights got there, but the thing to realise is that these are gutshots: Q9 and AQ. Can we really see those hands sticking around on the flop AND turn for pot sized bets? Yes if they have the flush draw to go with it, so Ac-Xc-Q-T or something. It's a *very* specific hand we're having to put them on though. Again, I bet for value a lot of times here and even if I think I am beat (which isn't that often in this situation), I check then call his river bet. If he had KK or some oddball straight draw, he got there and well done to him. We've not lost too big a pot, after all.

Evaluation:

Preflop - Meh, can take it or leave it.

Flop - Standard and good.

Turn - Seems the best way to play the hand to me.

River - Bleurgh.

One thing I would add here is that, if DOHHHHHH was thinking about the river bet in the following way, he'd get some serious props:

"I have two queens in my hand which does two things:

1) makes it that much harder for him to have the straight,

2) makes it easier for me to represent it! 

...so I'll bet to try and move him off weaker hands that I can't beat and aren't strong enough to call a bet on the river."

While this isn't the best particular situation to try the move, having those two queens in his hand blocks certain options - that's why we call those cards 'blockers' in Omaha. Using blockers to realise your opponent is less likely to have a certain holding is something to remember.

What actually happened though is you slowed down on the river and he thought to himself, "Pants, missed the lot with my open ended straight draw, only way I am winning here is to bet". Which he did and moved you off the hand.

The hand is definitely interesting but in some ways pretty simple. I hope that doesn't sound patronising, but if you start breaking down the range of hands you're worrying about, you will see it is pretty tiny. I pay off vs. KK and those weird AQ type hands because more often than not he's showing up with busted club or straight draws.

Hope that helps, and keep them coming!

Dave

mr_mbro

In Response to Re: Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!:

Right, bear with me if I miss something here (not too good at thinking and eating at the same time), but here goes. We'll take a look at the hand street by street. 1) Preflop.  An alright starting hand, but nothing more. You're looking to flop the world (top set or a straight) for cheap. Personally I call sometimes, fold others depending on position. Here I fold as I have too many players behind me to act.  One thing to avoid here is to hope to flop a flush. Too many times when you flop the ten high flush you'll run into a bigger one. Play as close to the nuts as possible, otherwise you might end up paying off a lot of times. To illustrate the point, what world of hurt would you have been in if DOHHHHHH had Qs6s in their hand rather than Qh6h and it comes all spades on the flop! 2) On the flop. Badda-bing! Top set and a relatively dry board. OK, there's a flush draw possible and some of those kooky little 67xx kind of things to worry about, but really this is about as good as it gets with your starting hand. Potting it defines your hand a fair bit, but you have the current nuts and you want to get some money in there to price out those draws. 3) On the turn. Relatively speaking, a decent turn card. If they have something like Kc-Xc-xx in their hand they've improved to one pair and a flush draw, and it might have even done something nuts like helped a hand like KTxx. That *would* be nice. Anyway, it's not a club which is good and it doesn't complete any straights. Brings a few more straight draws about, but unless you just got two outered, you are still rocking. Pot seems right.  A more conservative line might be to check/call the turn in a bid to control the pot size. Personally I don't think this is one of those situations. Too many cards in the deck are scare cards which he can either use to represent a hand (i.e. try and push you off by bluffing with a worse hand) or slows down those hands that could give you a ton of action (i.e. KT, 54, etc). I think betting here is MUCH better. 4) At the River. How does this change anything? Well, some straights got there, but the thing to realise is that these are gutshots: Q9 and AQ. Can we really see those hands sticking around on the flop AND turn for pot sized bets? Yes if they have the flush draw to go with it, so Ac-Xc-Q-T or something. It's a *very* specific hand we're having to put them on though. Again, I bet for value a lot of times here and even if I think I am beat (which isn't that often in this situation), I check then call his river bet. If he had KK or some oddball straight draw, he got there and well done to him. We've not lost too big a pot, after all. Evaluation: Preflop - Meh, can take it or leave it. Flop - Standard and good. Turn - Seems the best way to play the hand to me. River - Bleurgh. One thing I would add here is that, if DOHHHHHH was thinking about the river bet in the following way, he'd get some serious props: "I have two queens in my hand which does two things: 1) makes it that much harder for him to have the straight, 2) makes it easier for me to represent it!  ...so I'll bet to try and move him off weaker hands that I can't beat and aren't strong enough to call a bet on the river." While this isn't the best particular situation to try the move, having those two queens in his hand blocks certain options - that's why we call those cards 'blockers' in Omaha. Using blockers to realise your opponent is less likely to have a certain holding is something to remember. What actually happened though is you slowed down on the river and he thought to himself, "Pants, missed the lot with my open ended straight draw, only way I am winning here is to bet". Which he did and moved you off the hand. The hand is definitely interesting but in some ways pretty simple. I hope that doesn't sound patronising, but if you start breaking down the range of hands you're worrying about, you will see it is pretty tiny. I pay off vs. KK and those weird AQ type hands because more often than not he's showing up with busted club or straight draws. Hope that helps, and keep them coming! Dave
Posted by Sky_Dave

Hi Dave
Thanks m8
Dohhhhhh did say he didnt know what he was doing and he had been chasing straights and flushes just like nlhe. The way he played the hand was consistant with that thought.

col

TommyD

Flop the nut straight, should I of slow played?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Villain	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£113.26
TommyD	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£63.31
	Your hole cards	8 6 7 2
Villain	Raise		£1.25	£2.00	£112.01
TommyD	Call		£1.00	£3.00	£62.31
Flop
		5 8 4
TommyD	Bet		£3.00	£6.00	£59.31
Villain	Raise		£8.00	£14.00	£104.01
TommyD	Raise		£24.00	£38.00	£35.31
Villain	Fold
TommyD	Muck
TommyD	Win		£37.05		£72.36

This was cash and while it was a 6-max we were presently heads up (which is why I called pre with a dangler)

Flopped nut straight with weak flush draw.  I think the first bet is standard.  My thinking with the re-pot after Villain raised was:-

If they are betting to take it down there, there is little value on later streets.
Charge for the house/higher flush draws

So, should I of flatted the re-raise or put in a smaller bet bearing in mind the hand was vulnerable?

BigBluster

It seems to me that Hold 'Em is a game of starting cards and Omaha is a game of flops. Do you agree?

Playing the Omaha MTT earlier, I realised I just didn't have a clue about the mathematics and was playing on 'feel' alone. Gawd only knows how I finished 15th (just one place behind TK who DID know what he was doing) and Gawd only knows how I won one of the four Omaha MTTs I've played.

I need to spend some time on a poker odds website to work out the mathematics.

TommyD

You're right BigBluster, there are much more flops simply because there is much more combinations of starting hands to hit flops.  A little tip I was given when moving to PLO from Hold 'em was Hold 'em is a game where you make money by people getting out of a hand where as PLO is a game where you make money with people coming into the hand.  Play strong combination starting hands and make big hands while you are learning.

As you can see above I'm still struggling when it comes to maximising the value.

mrrivaz05

r we going to see 8ob on here also

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!:

r we going to see 8ob on here also
Posted by mrrivaz05

I believe that this is scheduled in the next few months.

Sky_Dave

In Response to Re: Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!:

Flop the nut straight, should I of slow played? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Villain  Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £113.26 TommyD Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £63.31   Your hole cards 8 6 7 2       Villain  Raise   £1.25 £2.00 £112.01 TommyD Call   £1.00 £3.00 £62.31 Flop     5 8 4       TommyD Bet   £3.00 £6.00 £59.31 Villain  Raise   £8.00 £14.00 £104.01 TommyD Raise   £24.00 £38.00 £35.31 Villain Fold         TommyD Muck         TommyD Win   £37.05   £72.36 This was cash and while it was a 6-max we were presently heads up (which is why I called pre with a dangler) Flopped nut straight with weak flush draw.  I think the first bet is standard.  My thinking with the re-pot after Villain raised was:- If they are betting to take it down there, there is little value on later streets. Charge for the house/higher flush draws So, should I of flatted the re-raise or put in a smaller bet bearing in mind the hand was vulnerable?
Posted by TommyD

TommyD,

Personally, I will never be slow playing this hand, especially without some kind of solid redraw to go with my hand. As we're playing 6-max, we can be a little more comfortable with our baby flush draw, more because it takes out two potential outs away from our opponent's own flush draw. If a heart comes on the turn, we have to proceed with relative caution.

As the hand is played, I think you did fine. If we opt to just call the raise, what turn cards are we going to be happy to see? Any non-heart above a ten, or any non-heart 2 or 3. Everything else slows us down in some way. If the board pairs, if a heart comes, if a bigger straightening card arrives, we're not knowing how best to play the hand and losing value that way. While it's not the most sophisticated way of playing the hand, our route keeps us away from a potentially messy turn decision.

A more experienced Omaha player might come in and comment that this is playing too ABC. Tikay?

Sky_Dave

In Response to Re: Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!:

You're right BigBluster, there are much more flops simply because there is much more combinations of starting hands to hit flops.  A little tip I was given when moving to PLO from Hold 'em was Hold 'em is a game where you make money by people getting out of a hand where as PLO is a game where you make money with people coming into the hand.  Play strong combination starting hands and make big hands while you are learning. As you can see above I'm still struggling when it comes to maximising the value.
Posted by TommyD

I think this is largely right, with a couple of facets being added...

Omaha is very much a flop game, where the hand is really defined. Hold'em is a game where - in my experience, at least - pushing people off a hand is far simpler, too. I think as you play higher up the Omaha limits, you can begin representing hands a little easier, but the lower levels is even more of a case of obeying your hand than hold'em.

As for the push/pull idea in Omaha, TommyD is spot on that you need to be dragging players into the pot when you flop a big hand to get the maximum value. There's also some Omaha pros who know there are situations where you have to push players out too, though. 

In my previous life as a poker journo, I interview Robert Williamson III (a well-known Omaha fiend) and he suggested the real trick in Omaha is knowing the relative values of the hands and which ones are push, which are pull. For example, is bottom two pair with no redraw a spot to be pushing players out of the pot? Is it so weak that you should be playing the hand cautiously? There are no solid answers, sadly. Instead it depends on situational things: is my opponent a calling station? What are the stack sizes like? Can I go for a check raise if I know my opponent has a big overpair? How co-ordinated is the flop and how likely is it that they have a big draw of their own?

Omaha - it's a game packed with ideas and different ways of playing the game which, in turn, should improve your overall poker.

DOHHHHHHH

Aup Dave I played a omaha game last night, n had a crazy hand, it was PL20, I had about 28 quid n the other 2 fellas in the poit had me covered...

I had pocket 8s in my hand n the flop came ....   TEN TEN 8    ........

I bet out pot, n the player behind raised the pot, the player behind him, raised the pot again, I obviously went all in, n got 2 callers, they both have me covered....

Can ya figure out.....if both these guys had a ten, which they did....

The odds on me winning?.....they r both drawing to a bigger full house, with 3 random cards each...which gives them 18 outs between them? - Am I even a favourite here? - Is there a case for folding??? - I dnt think so, but Im new so have to ask.....

If They turned their hands face up and said, "Im going all the way with it" - Is it right for me to continue?

18 outs twice....72%? - Im miles behind.....????

I have 1 out to make quads.....

Is this just one of those wierd omaha situations that 'just happen' ?

Cheerz, DOHH

EDIT -- After looking thru the HH Ive got the sequence of action abit wrong in the above description - but i dnt think that rly matters - ta.

DOHHHHHHH

Ive found the hand dave! - Turns out they both had a pair in their hand, so maybe it wasnt 18 outs, but can u still answer the above scenario, and then this specific scenario, cheerz.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
scotty77	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£39.73
wjxxx	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£31.89
	Your hole cards	7 8 8 J
mabsue	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£47.73
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£24.97
mrbiggest	Fold
GREGHOGG	Fold
scotty77	Call		£0.10	£0.80	£39.63
wjxxx	Check
Flop
		10 10 8
scotty77	Bet		£0.80	£1.60	£38.83
wjxxx	Raise		£3.20	£4.80	£28.69
mabsue	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£11.20	£16.00	£13.77
scotty77	Raise		£36.80	£52.80	£2.03
wjxxx	All-in		£28.69	£81.49	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	All-in		£13.77	£95.26	£0.00
scotty77	Unmatched bet		£5.71	£89.55	£7.74
scotty77	Show	9 9 10 7
wjxxx	Show	K K 10 7
DOHHHHHHH	Show	7 8 8 J
Turn
		6
River
		9
scotty77	Win	Full House, 10s and 9s	£87.75		£95.49

Sky_Dave

Morning DOHHHHHH,

Yep, I'll take a look for you in just a moment. Watch this space!

Talon

 From what i can see there are 25 cards left if we assume that none of the outs are in the folded hands then scotty has 2   wj  has 2 and 1 more to spilit between them. In this situation we are talking 4% per out per street (1 in 25).

 so scotty is 16%
      wjx    is 16%
     split between scotty and wj  is 8%

  Which makes you at that time  60% to win the hand. Which includes your 8% chance of killing the hand dead by hitting the case 8.

  Not the exact maths but close enough to show you where you were.

DOHHHHHHH

Hey Dave I see ur round the forum this morn, just a gentle nudge cud u have a look at the omaha hand ive posted on here if you've got a min, Cheerz m8.

Sky_Dave

OK, if each of our opponents has 3 card in their hand to draw to a better boat than our eights-full, we can figure the pot odds using the same rule as in Hold'em, namely the 'Rule of Four and Two' - figure the number of outs and x4 on the flop and x2 on the turn; that gives us a rough percentage to win the pot.

In this case we'll assume nothing really nasty has happened, such as them flopping quads or holding T-8. We're assuming each opponent has T-x-x-x, where each of those x's are viable outs. Ideally, we'd like both of them to have each others cards (your hand also contains some blockers), but we'll come back to that in a moment. We'll take worst case scenarios such as this:

Scotty77: A-K-Q-T

wbxxxx: T-9-6-5.

These holdings are very unlikely but we're looking for the ugliest of the spots. Each player has 9 outs, so 18 outs combined vs. your hand. That makes each of them 36% and you with the remaining 28%. Ugly stuff indeed.

However, that's the worst case. What is more likely is they have a lot of each other's outs, or indeed you have some of theirs. You'd hope that their starting hands would contain a J or 7 in there along with the T, and even if not, their own cards with overlap: As, Ks and Qs all good cards alongside the T. So if we took a more likely range of hands to be up against we find out hand odds improve drastically.

Scotty: A-K-J-T

wbxxx: K-Q-J-T

Now Scotty has 6 outs: (3xA, 2xK, 1xJ) as does wbxxx has (2xK, 3xQ, 1xJ). So now you're sweating vs 12 outs in the whole deck instead of the 18. Each of them are now ~24%, while you are left with ~52%.

There are some hand calculators out there that let you do more exact maths in Omaha, so do Google a few and dig about - it's one of the the best ways of learning in my opinion

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Oma-what? Omaha questions here, folks!:

OK, if each of our opponents has 3 card in their hand to draw to a better boat than our eights-full, we can figure the pot odds using the same rule as in Hold'em, namely the 'Rule of Four and Two' - figure the number of outs and x4 on the flop and x2 on the turn; that gives us a rough percentage to win the pot. In this case we'll assume nothing really nasty has happened, such as them flopping quads or holding T-8. We're assuming each opponent has T-x-x-x, where each of those x's are viable outs. Ideally, we'd like both of them to have each others cards (your hand also contains some blockers), but we'll come back to that in a moment. We'll take worst case scenarios such as this: Scotty77: A-K-Q-T wbxxxx: T-9-6-5. These holdings are very unlikely but we're looking for the ugliest of the spots. Each player has 9 outs, so 18 outs combined vs. your hand. That makes each of them 36% and you with the remaining 28%. Ugly stuff indeed. However, that's the worst case. What is more likely is they have a lot of each other's outs, or indeed you have some of theirs. You'd hope that their starting hands would contain a J or 7 in there along with the T, and even if not, their own cards with overlap: As, Ks and Qs all good cards alongside the T. So if we took a more likely range of hands to be up against we find out hand odds improve drastically. Scotty: A-K-J-T wbxxx: K-Q-J-T Now Scotty has 6 outs: (3xA, 2xK, 1xJ) as does wbxxx has (2xK, 3xQ, 1xJ). So now you're sweating vs 12 outs in the whole deck instead of the 18. Each of them are now ~24%, while you are left with ~52%. There are some hand calculators out there that let you do more exact maths in Omaha, so do Google a few and dig about - it's one of the the best ways of learning in my opinion
Posted by Sky_Dave

I love to be pedantic so I'm going to say that they are not both 36%.
Scotty77 would be 42% and wbxxx would be 30% but you would still be 28% (which was the main point!).
The reason for Scotty being a significant favourite is that if he made his full house then it would always beat a full house made by wbxxx. Watch out for those bad full houses in Omaha.