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Would you call or fold? Live game

kirstiikirstii Member Posts: 787
edited May 2010 in The Poker Clinic
Hey guys, this situation arose in a £30 + £3 tournament on Sunnday night at the Merchant City Gala Casino in Glasgow.

The effective stacks are 18,000 and the blinds are 50 and 100, it's the fourth hand of the tournament.

A full table of ten players with one player missing as he hadn't turned up yet. The dealer dealt out the hand and just after i look at my cards another player notices that the player who wasn't at the table hadn't been dealt a hand, therefore it was a misdeal and had to be dealt again.

The player two places to my left who had been quite vocal up to that point slammed down his pocket aces and went on something of a mini tirade at nobody in paticular.

The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls, and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me.

Simple question, do you take your AK suited to battle against a random hand for 180 BB with a caller still to act?
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Comments

  • luvBWFCluvBWFC Member Posts: 763
    edited April 2010
    You can find a better spot. It's a sprint not a marathon etc.  You can't win the tournament in the 4th hand, but you can certainly lose it. This is certainly a guy to watch, hopefully you can stack him later when you have a known advantage
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    You can find a better spot. It's a sprint not a marathon etc.  You can't win the tournament in the 4th hand, but you can certainly lose it. This is certainly a guy to watch, hopefully you can stack him later when you have a known advantage
    Posted by luvBWFC

    If you fold, just go home.
  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    That is a decent starting stack for a £30 mtt.  As for the hand, it is prob correct  to call but you have to be sure he has not looked as I see ppl do this time and again and then show aa.

    For me it would depend on a few things, is there cash tables running that I could get in if I was busted.  If I had got a lift from someone else and I had to wait for them to finish their tourney and there was no cash table, or I had no extra funds etc, I would fold.

    Did anyone point out to him that they wouldnt have even been his cards had the dealer dealt correctly.  If there is any chance of a misdeal, I will never look at my cards
  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    It's a fist pump call. You are 67.045% favourite with AKs against any 2 random cards. So if you had KK and they turned over AJs and shoved all in... would you call? Because the % odds are almost equal in both situations, so by him shoving without looking at his cards then you are a 67% favourite in the long run.

    For me, my biggest concern would be how sure I was that he hadn't looked at his cards. If he had looked and open shoved for 180BBs I am unsure of what I would do.
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    You can find a better spot. It's a sprint not a marathon etc.  You can't win the tournament in the 4th hand, but you can certainly lose it. This is certainly a guy to watch, hopefully you can stack him later when you have a known advantage
    Posted by luvBWFC
    Lol at this. So AK against a random hand isnt a known advantage?
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : once more some fantastic in depth advice there, really helped thanks.
    Posted by kirstii

    AK is a very good hand ..... if the player is blind then it's a no brainer. Pump your fist as you announce all-in.
  • philmenowphilmenow Member Posts: 617
    edited April 2010

    dont like callin with A hi normally,but if ur sure he hasnt looked and isnt related to the dealer ,think you got 2 call..is quite possible to lose tho...,

  • barnsiebarnsie Member Posts: 496
    edited April 2010
    think about it for approx 2 secs then call

    this is a live game !
  • luvBWFCluvBWFC Member Posts: 763
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Lol at this. So AK against a random hand isnt a known advantage?
    Posted by yb
    You have the potential 3rd opponent to consider also. If he calls where's your AK against 1 random hand and one player who decided to call 2 all ins? You are only in this pot for a small amount at the mo, with a really deep stack. With QQ (maybe even JJ) up I would probably call, AK is only ace high and at these blinds to stack ratios I'm not mad keen to get all in with it.
  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    think about it for approx 2 secs then call this is a live game !
    Posted by barnsie
    They still have 2 cards, live or not.  I dont think the op is asking wether or not she is crushing their range as such, but more along the lines of, should she be taking a possible 60/40 or w/e so early.  The only hand I would really like to see here is ax if I called.

    I would actually be more inclined to fold in a live game this early for reasons stated above than I would online.  Of course you have to take out of the equation that they havent looked at their hand.

    Also, if I played live mtts every night, I would prob call, but as my casino visits are few and far between I would hate to bust out so early, however right or wrong it is.

    edit - I read post slightly wrong.  Was your stack 18k?  If so I am always always folding this
  • kirstiikirstii Member Posts: 787
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : They still have 2 cards, live or not.  I dont think the op is asking wether or not she is crushing their range as such, but more along the lines of, should she be taking a possible 60/40 or w/e so early.  The only hand I would really like to see here is ax if I called. I would actually be more inclined to fold in a live game this early for reasons stated above than I would online.  Of course you have to take out of the equation that they havent looked at their hand. Also, if I played live mtts every night, I would prob call, but as my casino visits are few and far between I would hate to bust out so early, however right or wrong it is. edit - I read post slightly wrong.  Was your stack 18k?  If so I am always always folding this
    Posted by OMahonyO
    Yip 18k stack, in the end i agonised over it and folded, player to my left snap called and turned over queens, board comes 7 high and he busts the player and would have taken me as well. Hands are so easy to play with hindsight!!
  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : Yip 18k stack, in the end i agonised over it and folded, player to my left snap called and turned over queens, board comes 7 high and he busts the player and would have taken me as well. Hands are so easy to play with hindsight!!
    Posted by kirstii

    So what did the first all inner have?
  • BrownnDogBrownnDog Member Posts: 729
    edited April 2010
    Insta cawl
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,715
    edited April 2010


    Live Poker dynamics are totally different to Online Poker, & as recreational players, we do & should approach affordable buy-in Live Poker differently.

    It's a Snap-fold.

    Next case.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,715
    edited April 2010

    As to the individual who threw a strop as to his "aces" in the misdeal, he has clearly yet to grow a brain or even assemble a modicum of intelligence, common-sense or the ability to see the situation in an adult or reasoned fashion.

    As Omhoney pointed out, if there had NOT been a misdeal, he would not have had those Aces.

    It's a grim state of affairs when our education system produces such individuals.

    I wonder how he would cope in life if he really did have to face a little adversity? Like, real adversity.  
  • kirstiikirstii Member Posts: 787
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game : So what did the first all inner have?
    Posted by OMahonyO
    K3 off
  • kirstiikirstii Member Posts: 787
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    As to the individual who threw a strop as to his "aces" in the misdeal, he has clearly yet to grow a brain or even assemble a modicum of intelligence, common-sense or the ability to see the situation in an adult or reasoned fashion. As Omhoney pointed out, if there had NOT been a misdeal, he would not have had those Aces. It's a grim state of affairs when our education system produces such individuals. I wonder how he would cope in life if he really did have to face a little adversity? Like, real adversity.  
    Posted by Tikay10
    spot on
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Would you call or fold? Live game:
    Live Poker dynamics are totally different to Online Poker, & as recreational players, we do & should approach affordable buy-in Live Poker differently. It's a Snap-fold. Next case.
    Posted by Tikay10


    LOL WUT?
    Poker is poker, it's just easier to get the long run online, meaning that when playing live we should be taking into account not only the structure of the comp+field standard but also the real life costs to us (like having to drive back home when you lose, how far you travelled to play etc etc).

    It's still not a fold against a genuinely blind hand. 

    Doesn't mean 180bb's isn't alot to put in, but in general live turns into a massive crapshoot due to the blinds and how incorrectly people play the later stages,  so the relative advantage of getting a massive stack and being able to open whenever you want against overly tight reshipping ranges is huge and will allow you to shoot for first. Depending on the frequency of the player two to your lefts re-raising range preflop you can be pretty happy that he wont be able to continue very often when he flat calls you initially.

    If we're folding ace king to an any two reshove what are we calling with? Where is the cut off? Is Kings too weak because any ace has 30%?
  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    TK how can you fold?? Opponent shows you AJs and shoves... so you fold your KK then yes?

    I think this strategy section should look to give advice on optimal play and ignore factors such as travel time etc.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,715
    edited April 2010

    Beaneh. you need to read my reply properly, please. This is Live Poker, played by a recreational player, for fun. It changes the paramaters completely. I know you are a hard-nosed Pro, & very good at what you do, but most players are not, & we need to address their particular stance when replying.

    Blackfish. One of THE most important skills in Live Poker is paying attention to what is happening around us, it is a HUGE asset to a "Live Poker" player, more so - MUCH more so, than in Online Poker. In fact, it applies to observation generally, because you clearly missed what the OP said.....(my enboldenment).

    The hand is redealt and i get AK of clubs and make a 3x raise, the player to my left calls, and the player two to my left shoves his whole stack into the middle without looking at his cards, it's folded round to me.

    What hand do you put the flat-caller on? Do you know, or think, they may also call? If they do, what range of hands can you put them on? Do we really need to take a flip (against the flat-caller) at this stage? In my case, the answer is "NO". Because I expect to cash in this Tourney, (because it is Live, where the standard of play is "mixed" at best) and to do so, I do NOT need to take a flip this early. The benefit of an early double-up in such a comp is also dubious. IMO, of course.
     

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