so Beaneh your sayin if the guy who pot bets actually shoved like the other guy then this is now a correct call?? so i assuming your going to answer 'yes' therefore its already the correct call because the guy who pot bets is callin, im 100% convinced he's callin. infact i would like Dohhhhhhh to put the rest of this hand up and see if he did call or not (i have no idea, all i know about this hand is doh folded) ...if this guy who pot bet the flop folds to the shove then i will never write anything else on this forum!! Posted by Eagle26
obviously he called... look at the OP, you can see a turn and river were dealt.
I don't like the way this is goin, was pretty chuffed when everyone said easy fold - its kinda going the other way now! I'll try and dig the rest of the hand out now.
Here ya go, what a feeling on the turn - A week ago I call, just been trying to play more solid, and always have the saying "can I find a better spot" - in the back of my head.
Thanx for the replies tho - still non the wiser, but think it was right, if id missed the turn it wud be easier to believe.
so Beaneh your sayin if the guy who pot bets actually shoved like the other guy then this is now a correct call?? so i assuming your going to answer 'yes' therefore its already the correct call because the guy who pot bets is callin, im 100% convinced he's callin. infact i would like Dohhhhhhh to put the rest of this hand up and see if he did call or not (i have no idea, all i know about this hand is doh folded) ...if this guy who pot bet the flop folds to the shove then i will never write anything else on this forum!! Like ive said before im fully aware your a good player/winning player and i have no doubts at all your a much better player than I am, your mathematical understanding of the game is outstanding (although in my opinion maths is idiotic- understanding basic pot odds is more than enough to be a good solid player) but to fold this hand in a CASH game for 1 buy-in with 5 other people in the pot is too nitty! the implied odds make this a call. Posted by Eagle26
Imagine the guy open shoved instead of leading, then there was a call ofcourse I then call because I would be getting the minimum odds required for my hand.
You cannot have implied odds on a hand if you require people over calling you (which may or MAY NOT happen).
You're opinion maths is idiotic? Yet in a few seconds you should be able to write down the equation and work out whether this call is correct in itself and exactly how far off correct it is. To the point that there can be no discussion.
You seem to be suggesting that because this time 'you feel' the guy leading will continue you would therefore feel you had the odds and go with it, that would be a mistake. Just because we can see this guy has two pair, he may well even fold that sometimes, even with just a misclick!
I would have to be pretty a) tilted or b) stuck or c) wanting to build a deep stack on that table.
FWIW it's like the best hand to make a losing call with in this situation :-)
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........: I don't like the way this is goin, was pretty chuffed when everyone said easy fold - its kinda going the other way now! I'll try and dig the rest of the hand out now. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
No it's not you numpty. Easy fold and you should be able to work out exactly the expected outcome of this play.
lol Beaneh we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I still 100% think this is a call. I know what your sayin about the implied odds-but implied odds require some educational guesswork and like ive said with 5 other people in the pot 2 of which have shown alot of interest in the pot (and we dont know the others aint check callin/raisin) then i feel its the correct call. perhaps its a closer decision than I originally thought and made out but in all close decisions i feel you should try to make the play that creates the appearance of giving action. a table image of an action player, one who likes excitement and who will bet, raise and call with a variety of hands is more profitable than the table image of a rock who needs something close to the nuts to put his money in the pot!...
lol Beaneh we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I still 100% think this is a call. I know what your sayin about the implied odds-but implied odds require some educational guesswork and like ive said with 5 other people in the pot 2 of which have shown alot of interest in the pot (and we dont know the others aint check callin/raisin) then i feel its the correct call. perhaps its a closer decision than I originally thought and made out but in all close decisions i feel you should try to make the play that creates the appearance of giving action. a table image of an action player, one who likes excitement and who will bet, raise and call with a variety of hands is more profitable than the table image of a rock who needs something close to the nuts to put his money in the pot!... Posted by Eagle26
Pls to be showing me the maths mr eagle.
If you are saying you wish to call because you will be given a gamble image then yes you understand that you are calling incorrectly but you are trying to justify the level of mistake with the amount of action that you could gain from your opponents. That is a completely correct way to think about things and is completely true, if it wasn't for the fact that as this level they will stack off anyway and your image is a lot less important.
As is, you calling this shove is still going to be losing you money EVERY TIME YOU DO IT. AND we can work out exactly HOW MUCH is being lost pretty easily.
Eagle why do you seem to think that I need the nuts to put my money in? Have you never played against me?!
Hmmm 117th post eh? were your other 116 as good as this one? BTW i sat and watched you 4 tabling a couple of nights ago and i would rather watch paint dry tbh.dav
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : Pls to be showing me the maths mr eagle. If you are saying you wish to call because you will be given a gamble image then yes you understand that you are calling incorrectly but you are trying to justify the level of mistake with the amount of action that you could gain from your opponents. That is a completely correct way to think about things and is completely true, if it wasn't for the fact that as this level they will stack off anyway and your image is a lot less important. As is, you calling this shove is still going to be losing you money EVERY TIME YOU DO IT. AND we can work out exactly HOW MUCH is being lost pretty easily. Eagle why do you seem to think that I need the nuts to put my money in? Have you never played against me?! Posted by beaneh
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........: In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : Hmmm 117th post eh? were your other 116 as good as this one? BTW i sat and watched you 4 tabling a couple of nights ago and i would rather watch paint dry tbh.dav Posted by dav1964
They were in a ration of about 10:100 where the 10 were sarcy and bitc hy posts at silly OPs and the other 100 were either vaguely hidden strategy advice or just plain good advice, with some of them even giving explanations!!
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : NOW i give up Posted by dav1964
Even though i dont agree with Beaneh with this particular hand, the guy does know what he's talkin about (and agree with what he says 99% of the time). ive been trying to have a constructive conversation/debate with him - if im wrong, im wrong! ... Dav if you feel you disagree with what he is sayin then perhaps explain why you feel this way??
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : Even though i dont agree with Beaneh with this particular hand, the guy does know what he's talkin about (and agree with what he says 99% of the time). ive been trying to have a constructive conversation/debate with him - if im wrong, im wrong! ... Dav if you feel you disagree with what he is sayin then perhaps explain why you feel this way?? Posted by Eagle26
Eagle if you know that it is a bad call but you still make it, is that bad play?
Well yes and no, as long as you know what you are doing it's fine.
If you truly believe that by calling here with the fd and having everyone see that you go all in with 'a speculative hand' then you may well get more action.
However you would be assuming that those people you are playing with a) know that you should fold this hand and that b) they will use this information to adapt their play in the long term.
If you think this is the case then go go go (as I said if someone was deep stacked and I wanted a chance to stack them I might well call it off here looking to build a stack or reload but i'd at the same time be desperate for someone to overcall so that I wasn't making a losing play!).
So what i'm saying is that yes you need to be able to work out the maths and the % exactly but you also must let the right factors influence your decision.
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : Hmmm 117th post eh? were your other 116 as good as this one? BTW i sat and watched you 4 tabling a couple of nights ago and i would rather watch paint dry tbh.dav Posted by dav1964
lol this is hilarious....zing is one of the best multi-tablers on 50nl....
but yeah the hand i kinda agree with BD in that while you aren't getting the exact odds, if you have previous with the villain then it can be worth the call to set up a good table.
also as long as you are rolled for the level then you can make marginals like this .
but no one can argue with the pure maths that beaneh has provided. going on that alone it is a clear fold but as i said if i know that the villain will constantly reload/tilt etc id make it....
I like a good debate over a hand but this one is an easy fold tbh.
My post above proves thats it is a -ev call even in a perfect senario for us.
If your looking to create image there is many better ways of doing this and like beaneh said its not to important at 30nl on sky as they mostly only play their cards and the board.
at these stakes im guessin that the majority (not all) probably wont know if you should/shouldn't fold this hand if your going purely on the mathematical side of things!...
Yes your giving a gambling image -which is what you want. but at the same time in this particular hand i think its a safe to assume that the guy who pot bet into 5 other people will be makin the call- therefore giving you the correct odds. ok its not a 100% certain he's callin but a good educational guess would suggest he will. and like ive already said you may get the added bonus of one of the other guys callin also. by makin the call here you are creating an excellent table image. and are very likely also making the correct mathematical call because i really cant see the guy folding! ... if it all goes horribly wrong, you reload simple! If you hit (in this case he would of done) you are more than doubling your stack and have a image of a gambler - happy days!
Comments
If you knew nalotofdet had a set and was definely going to go all-in would you call?
lol, good point, but missing my draw could well lead me to tilt away 10 buyins. It has happened. ( well maybe not 10 )
I don't like the way this is goin, was pretty chuffed when everyone said easy fold - its kinda going the other way now! I'll try and dig the rest of the hand out now.
Here ya go, what a feeling on the turn
Thanx for the replies tho - still non the wiser, but think it was right, if id missed the turn it wud be easier to believe.
As it happends the villian has bottom two pair and is probably not folding to two all-ins but could easily of had the qj hand.
But even if Dohhhhhhh knew what they had its still a fold by my maths:
Main pot £52.74/100* 29.57%E= £15.60
Side pot £15.38/100*33.74%E= £5.19
Doh has to call £23.77- (on average would win) 15.60 +5.19= -£2.98 ev every time he calls.
I would have to be pretty a) tilted or b) stuck or c) wanting to build a deep stack on that table.
I don't like the way this is goin, was pretty chuffed when everyone said easy fold - its kinda going the other way now! I'll try and dig the rest of the hand out now.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH
if id missed the turn it wud be easier to believe.
do you all still call if it was a tourny?
Posted by murray69
lol Beaneh we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I still 100% think this is a call. I know what your sayin about the implied odds-but implied odds require some educational guesswork and like ive said with 5 other people in the pot 2 of which have shown alot of interest in the pot (and we dont know the others aint check callin/raisin) then i feel its the correct call.
perhaps its a closer decision than I originally thought and made out but in all close decisions i feel you should try to make the play that creates the appearance of giving action. a table image of an action player, one who likes excitement and who will bet, raise and call with a variety of hands is more profitable than the table image of a rock who needs something close to the nuts to put his money in the pot!...
Pls to be showing me the maths mr eagle.
As is, you calling this shove is still going to be losing you money EVERY TIME YOU DO IT. AND we can work out exactly HOW MUCH is being lost pretty easily.
In Response to Re: Okay, big draw, laid down........ : Hmmm 117th post eh? were your other 116 as good as this one? BTW i sat and watched you 4 tabling a couple of nights ago and i would rather watch paint dry tbh.dav
Posted by dav1964
They were in a ration of about 10:100 where the 10 were sarcy and bitc hy posts at silly OPs and the other 100 were either vaguely hidden strategy advice or just plain good advice, with some of them even giving explanations!!
If you truly believe that by calling here with the fd and having everyone see that you go all in with 'a speculative hand' then you may well get more action.
but yeah the hand i kinda agree with BD in that while you aren't getting the exact odds, if you have previous with the villain then it can be worth the call to set up a good table.
also as long as you are rolled for the level then you can make marginals like this .
but no one can argue with the pure maths that beaneh has provided. going on that alone it is a clear fold but as i said if i know that the villain will constantly reload/tilt etc id make it....
I like a good debate over a hand but this one is an easy fold tbh.
My post above proves thats it is a -ev call even in a perfect senario for us.
If your looking to create image there is many better ways of doing this and like beaneh said its not to important at 30nl on sky as they mostly only play their cards and the board.
at these stakes im guessin that the majority (not all) probably wont know if you should/shouldn't fold this hand if your going purely on the mathematical side of things!...
Yes your giving a gambling image -which is what you want. but at the same time in this particular hand i think its a safe to assume that the guy who pot bet into 5 other people will be makin the call- therefore giving you the correct odds. ok its not a 100% certain he's callin but a good educational guess would suggest he will. and like ive already said you may get the added bonus of one of the other guys callin also.
by makin the call here you are creating an excellent table image. and are very likely also making the correct mathematical call because i really cant see the guy folding! ... if it all goes horribly wrong, you reload simple! If you hit (in this case he would of done) you are more than doubling your stack and have a image of a gambler - happy days!