pocket 66's for me. dunno why but I always seem to flop a set (or quads!) with them! in a cash game any small pocket pair, or suited connectors are the most valuable if your playin deepstacked poker. in a tourney obviously the big premium hands are alot more valuable, especially at the later stages. obviously your premium hands AA/KK/QQ/AK are great starting hands in cash games too but they tend to win small pots and lose big ones (unless u floppa whoppa) id take small pairs, suited connectors, suited aces in a deepstacked cash game anyday of the week over AA/KK, if u miss you throw it away, if u hit you can potentially take down a huge pot .
Aces holds more value when stacks are shallow (say 10bb) and less when stacks are deep (say 100bb). But aces is still the most profitable hand when 100bb deep as my holdem manager statistics say that i earn more than double with aces than any other hand when playing 100bb cash games, my second most profitable hand is kk lol :-) Posted by DeuceAK-47
In a similar vein, my Pokertracker database says that my 3 most profitable starting hands are AA, KK and QQ
It's not too shocking really,obviously there is a slightly different dynamic at play with very deep stacks (cash games in particular), but - for everybody who says you either win small pots with AA or lose big ones. I'd say that you don't have to lose the big pots (or not many of them anyway).
A lot of people lose big pots with AA when it hasn't improved at all and they only end up with a pair of aces, these are hands where you should be looking at pot control to minimise your losses because you haven't got much of a hand.
All in all you still lose bigger pots with AA then you win on average, but the point is that you should be winning a lot of smaller pots with AA, a few bigger ones when you hit a monster and then only lose a handful of big pots.
All in all you should be making a lot of chips with AA - if it's not your most profitable hand, you're doing something wrong.
In Response to Re: Most Profitable Starting Hands : In a similar vein, my Pokertracker database says that my 3 most profitable starting hands are AA, KK and QQ It's not too shocking really,obviously there is a slightly different dynamic at play with very deep stacks (cash games in particular), but - for everybody who says you either win small pots with AA or lose big ones. I'd say that you don't have to lose the big pots (or not many of them anyway). A lot of people lose big pots with AA when it hasn't improved at all and they only end up with a pair of aces, these are hands where you should be looking at pot control to minimise your losses because you haven't got much of a hand. All in all you still lose bigger pots with AA then you win on average, but the point is that you should be winning a lot of smaller pots with AA, a few bigger ones when you hit a monster and then only lose a handful of big pots. All in all you should be making a lot of chips with AA - if it's not your most profitable hand, you're doing something wrong. Posted by BelovedLtd
Many thanks Beloved for the feedback, with at least a bit of statistical data too.
Understand what you are saying in respect of minimising the losses with the premium hands where the community cards go wrong for you, and maybe in a way that is the point I was trying to get at (who knows in reality what this was all about )
I guess maybe this is where the difference lies between the average player, and the ones who play more for entertainment , as opposed to those with more experience, and the ability to read their opponents better, in that the first group may find it a lot harder to let go of the premium hands, and thus when they lose big, its become a selective memory thing, and hence why they then dont class those premium hands as one of their favourites, preferring the more unothordox hands.
I guess what I need here now is people who actually class a non premium hand as their favourite starting hand, that actually record stats as well, to say how their favourite hand compares to the premium hands. It may be that even for those players Aces are the most profitable, but their favourite hand is up amongst the best.
So I guess I need Mr Hartigan and Mr Banin to come on here and justify their decsion to class J 9 Diamonds and 8 7 off as their favourite hands, and how thei profitablility of those hands compare to the premium ones.
My Poker Tracker shows me that AA are my most profitable hole cards, followed by KK, QQ, JJ, then AK suited.
Once I had a big enough database and thoroughly analysed the stats I was surprised to find my biggest losing hole cards by far were TT. I was very glad I realised though, because it was obviously a major leak in my game, I realised I must have been playing TT much too hard. I've adjusted my game now, but I still consider TT to be 'the hand of doom', it's much more likely to lose you a big stack of chips than win you one.
This will probably sound horrible to most players, but mine has to be 7 2 ye old hammer. Weather suited or not. Its the hand i love to raise so much, if you do get a call and the flop is high, people are scared of a strong ace, if it is low, chances are youve hit and no one puts you on it. As a result i think its one of the most teasing hands in poker.
Interesting wording you used their about 'premium hands' AA, KK, QQ etc aren't 'premium hands' they are 'premium starting hands' Similarly to what you suggested I think a lot of people's problems arise from not knowing the difference. Posted by BelovedLtd
Lol I'll stand corrected there, altho given that I was talking about hole cards, I'd like to think it was inferred that I meant they were premium hands to hold pre flop
I like 2-J off, no-one expects you to be doing it, and when you come good it feels like you've won something big, even when you havn't. The hand can get a bit messy, but it's usually a price worth paying, even if you have to sit out for a minute to re-adjust. Very risky in a live venue though, and someone could easily get the wrong information when trying to read your facial expressions. Never play too aggressively with the hand, if you hit the nuts, you will know all about it, I can tell you!
I like 2-J off, no-one expects you to be doing it, and when you come good it feels like you've won something big, even when you havn't. The hand can get a bit messy, but it's usually a price worth paying, even if you have to sit out for a minute to re-adjust. Very risky in a live venue though, and someone could easily get the wrong information when trying to read your facial expressions. Never play too aggressively with the hand, if you hit the nuts, you will know all about it, I can tell you! Posted by oynutter
A lot of players seem to like a big pair, I much prefer a smaller pair. You don't have to worry so much about the flop, a big pair can go downhill fast once the flop has happened, whilst a small pair will remain firm and playable long after the big pairs have gone down the river. Granted, it can be harder to let go of a big pair, but they will tend to suffocate if you let them get on top of you. A small pair in the hand might not flop as much, but at least you know they won't slap you in the face on the turn. It can be quite dangerous trying to suck out on a big pair, whereas, with a nice small pair, you can always see exactly where you are. Big pairs are a lot harder to contain, and you will use a lot more of your valuable energy when you play with them. A small pair is much easier to handle, and you can play with them with one hand while you are busy doing something else with the other.
I once knew a live player that had a lovely big pair, but after the flop she had to give up because only cards and chips were allowed on the table
A nice small pair is your friend, hang on to them I say!
A lot of players seem to like a big pair, I much prefer a smaller pair. You don't have to worry so much about the flop, a big pair can go downhill fast once the flop has happened, whilst a small pair will remain firm and playable long after the big pairs have gone down the river. Granted, it can be harder to let go of a big pair, but they will tend to suffocate if you let them get on top of you. A small pair in the hand might not flop as much, but at least you know they won't slap you in the face on the turn. It can be quite dangerous trying to suck out on a big pair, whereas, with a nice small pair, you can always see exactly where you are. Big pairs are a lot harder to contain, and you will use a lot more of your valuable energy when you play with them. A small pair is much easier to handle, and you can play with them with one hand while you are busy doing something else with the other. I once knew a live player that had a lovely big pair, but after the flop she had to give up because only cards and chips were allowed on the table A nice small pair is your friend, hang on to them I say! Posted by oynutter
I thought wow this post is back on the first page, whats going on there, then I saw who had posted, and I had visions of what to expect, and all I can say is Nutter you didnt disapoint.
excellent couple of posts brought a smile to my face
One question with the 2-j off, do you splash the pot much
and also what do you do if someone else has the nuts, do you give them a mouthful for inappropriate play ?
Shakes head in despair. I thought wow this post is back on the first page, whats going on there, then I saw who had posted, and I had visions of what to expect, and all I can say is Nutter you didnt disapoint. excellent couple of posts brought a smile to my face One question with the 2-j off, do you splash the pot much and also what do you do if someone else has the nuts, do you give them a mouthful for inappropriate play ? Aski (Col) Posted by Aski
Cor blimey aski, you really must learn to read between the lines, when you have 2-J off, you are thinking outside the box, you know how rude it is to splash the pot, which is why I said the hand can get a bit messy, I mean, just imagine trying it when someone is utg!!--Use the hand properly man!-- If you have someone covered, there will be a lot more than facial expressions to worry about, I can tell you!---NEVER DO IT!---COME ON MAN!!
In Response to Re: Most Profitable Starting Hands : Cor blimey aski, you really must learn to read between the lines, when you have 2-J off, you are thinking outside the box, you know how rude it is to splash the pot, which is why I said the hand can get a bit messy, I mean, just imagine trying it when someone is utg!!--Use the hand properly man!-- If you have someone covered, there will be a lot more than facial expressions to worry about, I can tell you!---NEVER DO IT!---COME ON MAN!! Posted by oynutter
Comments
obviously your premium hands AA/KK/QQ/AK are great starting hands in cash games too but they tend to win small pots and lose big ones (unless u floppa whoppa) id take small pairs, suited connectors, suited aces in a deepstacked cash game anyday of the week over AA/KK, if u miss you throw it away, if u hit you can potentially take down a huge pot .
It's not too shocking really,obviously there is a slightly different dynamic at play with very deep stacks (cash games in particular), but - for everybody who says you either win small pots with AA or lose big ones. I'd say that you don't have to lose the big pots (or not many of them anyway).
A lot of people lose big pots with AA when it hasn't improved at all and they only end up with a pair of aces, these are hands where you should be looking at pot control to minimise your losses because you haven't got much of a hand.
All in all you still lose bigger pots with AA then you win on average, but the point is that you should be winning a lot of smaller pots with AA, a few bigger ones when you hit a monster and then only lose a handful of big pots.
All in all you should be making a lot of chips with AA - if it's not your most profitable hand, you're doing something wrong.
Understand what you are saying in respect of minimising the losses with the premium hands where the community cards go wrong for you, and maybe in a way that is the point I was trying to get at (who knows in reality what this was all about
I guess maybe this is where the difference lies between the average player, and the ones who play more for entertainment , as opposed to those with more experience, and the ability to read their opponents better, in that the first group may find it a lot harder to let go of the premium hands, and thus when they lose big, its become a selective memory thing, and hence why they then dont class those premium hands as one of their favourites, preferring the more unothordox hands.
I guess what I need here now is people who actually class a non premium hand as their favourite starting hand, that actually record stats as well, to say how their favourite hand compares to the premium hands. It may be that even for those players Aces are the most profitable, but their favourite hand is up amongst the best.
So I guess I need Mr Hartigan and Mr Banin to come on here and justify their decsion to class J 9 Diamonds and 8 7 off as their favourite hands, and how thei profitablility of those hands compare to the premium ones.
Aski
AA, KK, QQ etc aren't 'premium hands' they are 'premium starting hands'
Similarly to what you suggested I think a lot of people's problems arise from not knowing the difference.
Once I had a big enough database and thoroughly analysed the stats I was surprised to find my biggest losing hole cards by far were TT. I was very glad I realised though, because it was obviously a major leak in my game, I realised I must have been playing TT much too hard. I've adjusted my game now, but I still consider TT to be 'the hand of doom', it's much more likely to lose you a big stack of chips than win you one.
I once knew a live player that had a lovely big pair, but after the flop she had to give up because only cards and chips were allowed on the table
A nice small pair is your friend, hang on to them I say!
LMAO very true
I thought wow this post is back on the first page, whats going on there, then I saw who had posted, and I had visions of what to expect, and all I can say is Nutter you didnt disapoint.
excellent couple of posts brought a smile to my face
One question with the 2-j off, do you splash the pot much
and also what do you do if someone else has the nuts, do you give them a mouthful for inappropriate play ?
Aski (Col)
Pocket KKs..my fav pair