What to do here

The_Don90

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		50.00	50.00	1207.50
The_Don90	Big blind		100.00	150.00	3135.00
	Your hole cards	Q K
a	Raise		400.00	550.00	1355.00
ED22	Fold
cyall	Fold
x	Call		350.00	900.00	857.50
The_Don90	Call		300.00	1200.00	2835.00
Flop
		A 2 10
x	All-in		857.50	2057.50	0.00

Ok so this is a DYM £2 entry this morning. I have both players covered, straight draw and a nut flush draw. My reads of both opponents below.


Player a - Player a has a played a few pots, mostly with suited cards, noteably all in preflop with Q2 of diamonds, which quickly lost to pocket kings. I think he may have 2 suited cards, possibly hearts, however that would mean i still have outs against him. Im pretty sure hes following Player x's all in with an all in himself should i call so i know i have to be prepared to call that should i call.

Player x - Hes already been tilted by player a so i have no real idea what to expect, possibly second maybe third pair. Against this i have all my possible draws. However apart from 3 hands, one against my aces and 2 against player a which where both bad beats in his eyes going by convo in the chat box he, he hasnt been that active. So im rather wary but i also have him as possibly on tilt. 

If i call and miss im left with 1500 enough to recover from, if i fold and hit im kicking myself. Its one of those situations so im going to ask you guys what would you do here.

BlackFish3

1. Fold preflop. I hate QK to an UTG raise. Easily crushed, difficult to get off.

2. I think i call the flop, hoping the other dude comes in so you can take them both out and cash lol. At first i thought fold because its a dym and you can probs easily cash. But then you only have 30BBs and the pot seems too big to fold your monster drawing hand.

3. Your reads seem kinda weird, i think your guessing too much.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: What to do here:

1. Fold preflop. I hate QK to an UTG raise. Easily crushed, difficult to get off. 2. I think i call the flop, hoping the other dude comes in so you can take them both out and cash lol. At first i thought fold because its a dym and you can probs easily cash. But then you only have 30BBs and the pot seems too big to fold your monster drawing hand. 3. Your reads seem kinda weird, i think your guessing too much.
Posted by BlackFish3

I was basing my reads on the way both players had played previous hands compared to this pre-flop. Player A was playing almost any 2 under the gun m guessing trying to use the fear factor of being out of position to his advatage, but then again im not certain he was clever enough for that the way some hands panned out.  

As you said with 2. if i was calling i wanted to take them both on, as you said im a monster drawing hand, if i hit at least the flush draw i likley take both out, if not the J might be good enough, if my reads are correct either a K or Q may also be good.

GaryQQQ

With a stack of 3235 at this stage of a DYM you should not have even considered entering this pot with KQo, given the action before your turn to act. You should be happy to sit back and watch the short stacks battle it out.

Dudeskin8

If this is a DYM like you say I'd rather just fold and let the other two go to war, then you still have a good stack and a better chance of coming 3rd which is all you need

The_Don90

Since theres a lack of talk on this i thought id post what happened next lol

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		50.00	50.00	1207.50
The_Don90	Big blind		100.00	150.00	3135.00
	Your hole cards	Q K
a	Raise		400.00	550.00	1355.00
ED22	Fold
cyall	Fold
x	Call		350.00	900.00	857.50
The_Don90	Call		300.00	1200.00	2835.00
Flop
		A 2 10
x	All-in		857.50	2057.50	0.00
The_Don90	Call		857.50	2915.00	1977.50
a	All-in		1355.00	4270.00	0.00
The_Don90	Call		497.50	4767.50	1480.00
x	Show	10 K
The_Don90	Show	Q K
a	Show	A K
Turn
		A
River
		J
The_Don90	Win	Straight to the Ace	4767.50		6247.50

I went wity mt above reads, my read about Player x was correct second pair. My read about player a was wrong but neither had hearts nor a straight draw, so either was good.

I decided a flat call to player x was best, this will hopefuly encourage player a to shove over the top. Which happened.

Player a turned trip aces, witch i didnt really like, but still any heart or any J was good against his AK. The J came on the river and as a result id cashed. Although i have to say i would have felt comfortable should i have lost the hand aswell with what chips i had left.

harvey23

fold pre flop, KQo is never gone to play well OOP 3 way.

lynx3ffect

what the point in calling? this is a dym with 5 players left and u have enough chips to fold ur way to a win?

GaryQQQ

You got lucky this time, but it's a pot you shouldn't have been contesting.

If I saw you making that plays like that in a DYM my notes about you would say something like 'calling station pre-flop'.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: What to do here:

You got lucky this time, but it's a pot you shouldn't have been contesting. If I saw you making that plays like that in a DYM my notes about you would say something like 'calling station pre-flop'.
Posted by GaryQQQ

So you would base your notes on an entire DYM game on one hand? I dont usually get invovled with alot of starting hands, id folded most of my hands before this, as i said id built my stack off of aces with actually held up.

I senced weakness in my opponenets, one was on tilt and was all in with second pair and had called with a hand such as King Ten. The other hand been making funny plays alot, yes he actually had a hand this time but with 2 cards to come i have 12 outs.

9 hearts
3 jacks

Because i thought both opponents where weak i thought my Kings and maybe queens may also be good adding another 6 outs.

So why wouldnt i call this kind of situation when i think i have 18 outs to take 2 opponents out, having the chance to pop the bubble sooner rather than later.

I understand this turned out to be a misread and i did only have 12 outs and i hit one of them which i think i would hit around 40-45% of the time?

Just used a opt odds calcuator

AK - 48.0%

KQ - 46.9%

K10 - 5.1%

So im hitting 46.9% of the time to win the hand i cover most of my outs, im only 1.1% weaker than AK.

After the turn im still 28.6% of the time hitting the card i need. AK is now 71.4% abd K10 is dead.

So is it trully that bad a call?

GaryQQQ

My criticism was focused on your decision to enter a raised pot against two opponents with K high, despite your position of safety in the tournament. The number of outs post-flop doesn't come into it.

Fasir enough, it worked out this time, but it's an unwise move in the long run.

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : So you would base your notes on an entire DYM game on one hand? I dont usually get invovled with alot of starting hands, id folded most of my hands before this, as i said id built my stack off of aces with actually held up. I senced weakness in my opponenets, one was on tilt and was all in with second pair and had called with a hand such as King Ten. The other hand been making funny plays alot, yes he actually had a hand this time but with 2 cards to come i have 12 outs. 9 hearts 3 jacks Because i thought both opponents where weak i thought my Kings and maybe queens may also be good adding another 6 outs. So why wouldnt i call this kind of situation when i think i have 18 outs to take 2 opponents out, having the chance to pop the bubble sooner rather than later. I understand this turned out to be a misread and i did only have 12 outs and i hit one of them which i think i would hit around 40-45% of the time? Just used a opt odds calcuator AK - 48.0% KQ - 46.9% K10 - 5.1% So im hitting 46.9% of the time to win the hand i cover most of my outs, im only 1.1% weaker than AK. After the turn im still 28.6% of the time hitting the card i need. AK is now 71.4% abd K10 is dead. So is it trully that bad a call?
Posted by The_Don90

You kind of answer your own question there don't you, on the turn your a 70 - 30 Dog in a hand you had no need to be in.

The point isn't your read on 2 players tilting and being weak etc, the point is your strategy for DYM's, this is not cash, you can not reload if your wrong and adjust your image of the players. You are in with KQ against a raise (which i think was 4x bb but can't see origianl post), this has then been called so at this point it would be fair to assume that KQ is beat here and quite prossably dominated by an AQ - Ak type hand.

DYM's are not about winning, you don't need to jepordise your tournament to tripple through. All you need to concern yourself with is survival and with KQ to a 4xbb raise and a call then it's an insta muck. Your playing for 3rd not 1st, it doesn't matter if you win

The_Don90

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : You kind of answer your own question there don't you, on the turn your a 70 - 30 Dog in a hand you had no need to be in. The point isn't your read on 2 players tilting and being weak etc, the point is your strategy for DYM's, this is not cash, you can not reload if your wrong and adjust your image of the players. You are in with KQ against a raise (which i think was 4x bb but can't see origianl post), this has then been called so at this point it would be fair to assume that KQ is beat here and quite prossably dominated by an AQ - Ak type hand. DYM's are not about winning, you don't need to jepordise your tournament to tripple through. All you need to concern yourself with is survival and with KQ to a 4xbb raise and a call then it's an insta muck. Your playing for 3rd not 1st, it doesn't matter if you win
Posted by ACESOVER8s

Yea i understand what your saying here.

Although how you mean im a 70 - 30 dog? preflop or on the flop. Preflop was a misread and i had 3 to 1 on my money to call which means i only have to be right two thirds of the time.

As it turns out i was domiated by Ak by probably the weakest opponent on the table. I understand your saying its not cash aswell so if i am rong i cant reload etc. However i felt i was correct and went with my gut. Maybe not the wisest thing to always do but one i use alot and often get it corrrect.

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : Yea i understand what your saying here. Although how you mean im a 70 - 30 dog? preflop or on the flop. Preflop was a misread and i had 3 to 1 on my money to call which means i only have to be right two thirds of the time. As it turns out i was domiated by Ak by probably the weakest opponent on the table. I understand your saying its not cash aswell so if i am rong i cant reload etc. However i felt i was correct and went with my gut. Maybe not the wisest thing to always do but one i use alot and often get it corrrect.
Posted by The_Don90

1) Not what i said, i said your in a hand you don't need to be and are a 70 - 30 dog on the turn.

2) fine to go with your read on an oponent but i would choose a better position, if the guy is playing any 2 OOP as you say then you will get an opportunity against him alone when you are stronger than KQ with position. If you were against this 1 oppo with a read on him then you probably get different responses to your post.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : 1) Not what i said, i said your in a hand you don't need to be and are a 70 - 30 dog on the turn. 2) fine to go with your read on an oponent but i would choose a better position, if the guy is playing any 2 OOP as you say then you will get an opportunity against him alone when you are stronger than KQ with position. If you were against this 1 oppo with a read on him then you probably get different responses to your post.
Posted by ACESOVER8s

1. Understand you know, Although no money was changed on the turn money was already in, id got the money in with the biggest opportunity i had in the ganf.

2. Yea i understand this point and will listen to it. Against one oppoenent my draws may have been good against 2 i could be 0% on the turn easily. Thanks.

YOUNG_GUN

I seem to be the only one who thinks you have played this correctly, KQ aint a bad hand to call to a 4x raise with such a low buy in the play is poor. the only way i would fold is if i had a read that one of the other two only plays good cards and they are the one 4 betting, based on your reads even if wrong on what hands they had i still think you played this as you should.

So my two pennies worth is can understand the call, maybe not if someone tight is doing the 4 betting.

Can understand people saying to play it safe and fold as its DYM and KQ is not good against 2 opponents but in the lower buy ins well anything less the £5.50 would say the standard is poor and you often get players who over value there hands so you have the value in the initial call. perfect flop and you have them covered afterwards and you will still have plenty so why not call or even shove on this(i would probably do this because then it is likely one of the 2 fold)

harvey23

In Response to Re: What to do here:

I seem to be the only one who thinks you have played this correctly, KQ aint a bad hand to call to a 4x raise with such a low buy in the play is poor. the only way i would fold is if i had a read that one of the other two only plays good cards and they are the one 4 betting, based on your reads even if wrong on what hands they had i still think you played this as you should. So my two pennies worth is can understand the call, maybe not if someone tight is doing the 4 betting. Can understand people saying to play it safe and fold as its DYM and KQ is not good against 2 opponents but in the lower buy ins well anything less the £5.50 would say the standard is poor and you often get players who over value there hands so you have the value in the initial call. perfect flop and you have them covered afterwards and you will still have plenty so why not call or even shove on this(i would probably do this because then it is likely one of the 2 fold)
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

dont listen to any of this

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : dont listen to any of this
Posted by harvey23

I haven't read what he's said yet, but that is not helpful. Explain why you think he is wrong.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : dont listen to any of this
Posted by harvey23

Thanks mate, but we all entitled to our opinions im not saying mine is right but im just putting my view accross as you do

you say will be here to help on here you put fold pre flop no reasons?? then you say dont listen to me again no reasoninig. most people will at least give a reason so we have have another opinion and make a decision based on peoples advice and use to our advantage next time care to say any more then KQ fold preflop and are you saying in no instance would you call KQ in a 3 way pot preflop??? this is low stakes sit n go maybe your too advanced for these

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: What to do here:

I seem to be the only one who thinks you have played this correctly, KQ aint a bad hand to call to a 4x raise with such a low buy in the play is poor. the only way i would fold is if i had a read that one of the other two only plays good cards and they are the one 4 betting, based on your reads even if wrong on what hands they had i still think you played this as you should. So my two pennies worth is can understand the call, maybe not if someone tight is doing the 4 betting. Can understand people saying to play it safe and fold as its DYM and KQ is not good against 2 opponents but in the lower buy ins well anything less the £5.50 would say the standard is poor and you often get players who over value there hands so you have the value in the initial call. perfect flop and you have them covered afterwards and you will still have plenty so why not call or even shove on this(i would probably do this because then it is likely one of the 2 fold)
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

By advocating KQ against 2 oppos out of position you are activly encouraging overvaluing a hand.(something you claim is a poor trait of the bad players at this level yet you seem to consider is the right play?)

KQ is too easily dominated by an UTG raiser and another called.People call with paint so you can pretty easily assume that one of them either has one of your outs or has you outkicked if you hit. Exactly what hand are you expecting a 4xbb utg raise to have that you beat? and then when it is also called by somebody else you know that A2 is ahead of you never mind any pokcet pair plus AK AQ. It's just not the situation to get involved pre flop

harvey23

In Response to Re: What to do here:

In Response to Re: What to do here : I haven't read what he's said yet, but that is not helpful. Explain why you think he is wrong.
Posted by Cowgomoo

KQo is never going to be a profitable call in a 3way pot OOP, your going to be dominated enough times to hands like AK AQ. He then goes on to say " only way i would fold is if i had a read that one of the other two only plays good cards and they are the one 4 betting". in other words he is saying this is a super standard spot to flat every time, which it is not, it will just not be profitable in the long run. He then says he would fold if there was a 4bet, but there has not even been a 3bet in this hand, which leads me to believe they do not know very much.

Sorry if I come across as arrogant.