In Response to Re: What to do here : KQo is never going to be a profitable call in a 3way pot OOP, your going to be dominated enough times to hands like AK AQ. He then goes on to say " only way i would fold is if i had a read that one of the other two only plays good cards and they are the one 4 betting". in other words he is saying this is a super standard spot to flat every time, which it is not, it will just not be profitable in the long run. He then says he would fold if there was a 4bet, but there has not even been a 3bet in this hand, which leads me to believe they do not know very much. Sorry if I come across as arrogant. Posted by harvey23
Thats better ;o)
im not saying its a standard call but based on the price of the tourney as i play similar and beat, i agree its not profitable to call a 4 bet out of position just depends on the individual scenario really. Unless i have read how he has read the other two players(makes sense [ ] ) basically if utg has 4 bet and very aggressive could have suited connectors and other person who has called maybe they hold a similar hand. but the key is how to play on the flop, then the flop is as good as you can expect with KQ and the Ace Hearts out already, i wouldn't assume K or Q were good even though they maybe but your getting implied odds and essentially 3-1. alot of how i play this hand would be based on my feel of the opponents and also chip sizes in this example he has them covered by 1500 rather then nit it up and still need a bit of luck worth Knocking others out as you have 12 outs which means for it to be profitable you need to win 1 in 3 times you make this call
If it was on the bubble i would then not risk it here but although you may have other chances i think this is a good spot here
In Response to Re: What to do here : Thats better ;o) im not saying its a standard call but based on the price of the tourney as i play similar and beat, i agree its not profitable to call a 4 bet out of position just depends on the individual scenario really. Unless i have read how he has read the other two players(makes sense [ ] ) basically if utg has 4 bet and very aggressive could have suited connectors and other person who has called maybe they hold a similar hand. but the key is how to play on the flop, then the flop is as good as you can expect with KQ and the Ace Hearts out already, i wouldn't assume K or Q were good even though they maybe but your getting implied odds and essentially 3-1. alot of how i play this hand would be based on my feel of the opponents and also chip sizes in this example he has them covered by 1500 rather then nit it up and still need a bit of luck worth Knocking others out as you have 12 outs which means for it to be profitable you need to win 1 in 3 times you make this call If it was on the bubble i would then not risk it here but although you may have other chances i think this is a good spot here Posted by YOUNG_GUN
FYI young gun betting 4 times the big blind and a 4bet are 2 different things. Pre Flop the BB would be the first bet so when you raise they re-raise and you come over the top again then that would be a 4 bet. Betting 4x bb is simply the first raise in this chain
you seem far more concerned with the post flop play and and trying to make a good argument for the way it was played. While some of your points may be valid the crux of the argument of others is that it shouldn't have got that far if you were trying to play an optimum strategy to CASH not win in a DYM
In Response to Re: What to do here : FYI young gun betting 4 times the big blind and a 4bet are 2 different things. Pre Flop the BB would be the first bet so when you raise they re-raise and you come over the top again then that would be a 4 bet. Betting 4x bb is simply the first raise in this chain you seem far more concerned with the post flop play and and trying to make a good argument for the way it was played. While some of your points may be valid the crux of the argument of others is that it shouldn't have got that far if you were trying to play an optimum strategy to CASH not win in a DYM Posted by ACESOVER8s
Maybe a little of my tournament side comming through again?
So say its 2 off the bubble in a tournament where i usually play, the two shortest stacks are in this situation i have the same reads etc. Is it a bad call pre flop.
Thanks for understanding my post flop arguement this is the main reason why i posted this hand.
Pre flop ive watched two shorter stacks playing, one very loose aggressive, i believe the correct term for that type of player is a maniac (going by xbox game on that one) and one who seemed to be tight aggressive (shark) at the start. However the shark was put on tilt by the maniac and this then was playing loose passive poker more of what youd expect from what i believe the pro's call a fish. So as a result i thought my KQ was good, and i got it wrong and the flop was almost the best i could have asked for.
So maybe i played it in a tournament style a little too much which maybe isnt the best for a DYM. Is this maybe the reason why i go on streaks of wins in DYM's followed by streak of losses? Do i play too much tournament poker where i shouldnt?
In Response to Re: What to do here : Maybe a little of my tournament side comming through again? So say its 2 off the bubble in a tournament where i usually play, the two shortest stacks are in this situation i have the same reads etc. Is it a bad call pre flop. Thanks for understanding my post flop arguement this is the main reason why i posted this hand. Pre flop ive watched two shorter stacks playing, one very loose aggressive, i believe the correct term for that type of player is a maniac (going by xbox game on that one) and one who seemed to be tight aggressive (shark) at the start. However the shark was put on tilt by the maniac and this then was playing loose passive poker more of what youd expect from what i believe the pro's call a fish. So as a result i thought my KQ was good, and i got it wrong and the flop was almost the best i could have asked for. So maybe i played it in a tournament style a little too much which maybe isnt the best for a DYM. Is this maybe the reason why i go on streaks of wins in DYM's followed by streak of losses? Do i play too much tournament poker where i shouldnt? Posted by The_Don90
Most of my comments were directed at young gun on the last one Don but as for playing too many tournaments? it's a personal thing as to what you like to play . I commented on this hand because DYM strategy says this is not the best position to get involved. If a guy is a maniac then your going to get plenty of chances to get involved with him. KQ is just too easily dominated to be calling after a big raise and a call. Ok so this time he has AK but in fact he is indicating any high ace or any pocket pair, all of which are ahead of you. Prsonally i suck at sit n go and am much better at MTT (feel free to sharkscope me and you'll see what i mean lol) so i would advise more tournys less DYM's from my point of view. DYM's have a strategy that will serve you well which is conserve your chips and don't get involved until 4th, you have to remember your only playing for 3rd so you don't need to risk yourself to become chip leader. Play premium and don't waste chips is the way to go but like i said i suck at sit n go so ask advice from someone like blackfish or Phil - they excell at DYMs
If we forget what actually happened post flop and take a hypothetical - Theres 4xbb raise from UTG, a call following and you call from the BB with KQ. The flop comes 7 9 K Rainbow - What do you do? You have to act first because your out of position and you have no idea where you are in the hand, you've hit but you could easily be dominated
Are you going to get it all in because you have hit the top pair with an ok kicker? as we know from what the other guys held your going to get called in an instant because your owned by the AK. it's not about the result it's about the thought proces KQ KJ K10 QJ etc are all pretty easilt dominated when playing 3 ways to a big raise and a call.
I argee with most people, in a DYM why get involved to a raise pre-flop and oop with that hand, but having done that you have so many outs that you just about have to call the all-in, then getting 10 to 1 after the second all-in in is a must to call. You got lucky this time but in DYMs it is more prudent to preserve your chips until 4 handed.
When playing a DYM tjere is a very important number to remember and that is 3000. This is the average chipstack on the bubble. The principal of the game is to accumulate chips and get yourself to over this figure, then when it is bubble time you will be in a good position because there will always be a shortstack on the table who can be picked off.
Once you have a good stack you sit back and not play marginal hands. Consider this hand from the point of view of the 2 preflop folders. They watched you play a marginal hand out of position and get lucky and it ended the game so they had sat back with their stacks and watched you take all the risks and do all the work for them.
A succesful strategy at DYMs is to accumulate chips and to take as few big risks as possible.There will be enough people risking everything to get an early chip lead to allow much tighter play to be successful.
Thanks Talon, i now understand the pre flop is where i went wrong and should have got out of the way. I was doing my usual game of playing table image hoping to slap on the flop. Forgetting that in a DYM table image means Jack.
I got lucky and ended the game.
Aces over 8s thanks for the comment. like yourself im a MTT player and only really play DYMS at night when i cant sleep as a result i want to improve my game on these areas.
I teand to make my profits in the MTT's (not so much of late) and lose on the S&G's. Wouldnt sharkscope me im a little up and down although profits do still stake at over £200 which im a little disappointed since ive won over £2000.
Comments
im not saying its a standard call but based on the price of the tourney as i play similar and beat, i agree its not profitable to call a 4 bet out of position just depends on the individual scenario really. Unless i have read how he has read the other two players(makes sense [ ] ) basically if utg has 4 bet and very aggressive could have suited connectors and other person who has called maybe they hold a similar hand. but the key is how to play on the flop, then the flop is as good as you can expect with KQ and the Ace Hearts out already, i wouldn't assume K or Q were good even though they maybe but your getting implied odds and essentially 3-1. alot of how i play this hand would be based on my feel of the opponents and also chip sizes in this example he has them covered by 1500 rather then nit it up and still need a bit of luck worth Knocking others out as you have 12 outs which means for it to be profitable you need to win 1 in 3 times you make this call
If it was on the bubble i would then not risk it here but although you may have other chances i think this is a good spot here
you seem far more concerned with the post flop play and and trying to make a good argument for the way it was played. While some of your points may be valid the crux of the argument of others is that it shouldn't have got that far if you were trying to play an optimum strategy to CASH not win in a DYM
So say its 2 off the bubble in a tournament where i usually play, the two shortest stacks are in this situation i have the same reads etc. Is it a bad call pre flop.
Thanks for understanding my post flop arguement this is the main reason why i posted this hand.
Pre flop ive watched two shorter stacks playing, one very loose aggressive, i believe the correct term for that type of player is a maniac (going by xbox game on that one) and one who seemed to be tight aggressive (shark) at the start. However the shark was put on tilt by the maniac and this then was playing loose passive poker more of what youd expect from what i believe the pro's call a fish. So as a result i thought my KQ was good, and i got it wrong and the flop was almost the best i could have asked for.
So maybe i played it in a tournament style a little too much which maybe isnt the best for a DYM. Is this maybe the reason why i go on streaks of wins in DYM's followed by streak of losses? Do i play too much tournament poker where i shouldnt?
If we forget what actually happened post flop and take a hypothetical - Theres 4xbb raise from UTG, a call following and you call from the BB with KQ. The flop comes 7 9 K Rainbow - What do you do? You have to act first because your out of position and you have no idea where you are in the hand, you've hit but you could easily be dominated
Are you going to get it all in because you have hit the top pair with an ok kicker? as we know from what the other guys held your going to get called in an instant because your owned by the AK. it's not about the result it's about the thought proces KQ KJ K10 QJ etc are all pretty easilt dominated when playing 3 ways to a big raise and a call.
I argee with most people, in a DYM why get involved to a raise pre-flop and oop with that hand, but having done that you have so many outs that you just about have to call the all-in, then getting 10 to 1 after the second all-in in is a must to call.
You got lucky this time but in DYMs it is more prudent to preserve your chips until 4 handed.
col
Once you have a good stack you sit back and not play marginal hands. Consider this hand from the point of view of the 2 preflop folders. They watched you play a marginal hand out of position and get lucky and it ended the game so they had sat back with their stacks and watched you take all the risks and do all the work for them.
A succesful strategy at DYMs is to accumulate chips and to take as few big risks as possible.There will be enough people risking everything to get an early chip lead to allow much tighter play to be successful.
I got lucky and ended the game.
Aces over 8s thanks for the comment. like yourself im a MTT player and only really play DYMS at night when i cant sleep as a result i want to improve my game on these areas.
I teand to make my profits in the MTT's (not so much of late) and lose on the S&G's. Wouldnt sharkscope me im a little up and down although profits do still stake at over £200 which im a little disappointed since ive won over £2000.