In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky.. : Cheers beneah, makes sense, not very good at putting people on range of hands or anything like that yet. Posted by Patching99
try playing some very low stakes and just cover up your hole cards it will highlight the fact you need to understand why you are making each bet/raise and will improve your hand reading no end. As you dont know what you have you need to focus so much more on what your opponent does or doesn't have.
In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky.. : bet more on the flop there are tons of worse hands that can call you and you're giving them a good price and you're oop. turn is good, river is either one of three things a bet fold. a check call or a check fold. against this prescribed villain you could well just c/f to any decent sized bet basically. Posted by beaneh
not a check raise? lol
bet more on flop . c/f fold river based on your reads already sounds like a good idea
Doh i think i bet the river because by the sounds of it he don't bluff when his draws miss (2 overs called down and not bet at), and i think you can get value from lots of 10x hands. So i bet fold.
Theres £16 in the pot BF... If I bet fold, Its gonna cost me the size of a value bet, plus the pot, so v bet of £7-10ish - to get value from the hands he cud call with that I can beat....
So if he raises me , I lose a total of £23ish.
Check call, means I lose the same if I'm behind, but find out for sure wether I'm beat or not.......
I might lose out on £7-10 of value, but so many times I recover this value by winning the main pot, and maybe catching a bluff?
I hate bettin and allowing myself to be bluffed, when for the same price, I can get my answer, and If its the wrong one, Im losing the same as I would anyway......
......check call???
How about in position? - deffo make a bet then right?
In Response to Re: Did I play this bad or just unlucky.. : not a check raise? lol bet more on flop . c/f fold river based on your reads already sounds like a good idea Posted by lynx3ffect
we can check raise if he can bet 1pr hands worse than ours for thin value on the river and then think we've got air and bet call us.
Theres £16 in the pot BF... If I bet fold, Its gonna cost me the size of a value bet, plus the pot, so v bet of £7-10ish - to get value from the hands he cud call with that I can beat.... So if he raises me , I lose a total of £23ish. Check call, means I lose the same if I'm behind, but find out for sure wether I'm beat or not....... I might lose out on £7-10 of value, but so many times I recover this value by winning the main pot, and maybe catching a bluff? I hate bettin and allowing myself to be bluffed, when for the same price, I can get my answer, and If its the wrong one, Im losing the same as I would anyway...... ......check call??? How about in position? - deffo make a bet then right? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
if there are tonnes of middle pair kind of hands that he can peel the flop and turn because it's draw heavy and he's seen you bet draws before then there would still be some value to a river bet. Rather than just choosing c/c because it stops you possibly being frustrated by a raise and not seeing his hand you need to weigh up the 'value of the getting to showdown not being bluffed route' compared to the value of betting and possibly getting called. The only way to assess the situation is to properly try and analyse what range of hands he plays like this and how his range is therefore weighted in terms of combinations of each type. It's no use calling him because he can possible have tonnes of missed fd combos that you beat if he's never going to bet his missed draws, hence where reads come in.
Surely u have to play for hours with a player to get this info? I only 2 table, and check HH on any pot of substance and take notes, especially the ones Im not in. I rarely find info like this.(maybe coz nobody does anything apart from check/call/donk bet/ and shove at nl30) Also how many times must you see a player make a certain action, before u can pencil it in and rely on it as a solid read? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
you need to learn to 'see' more. by that I mean you see someone cbet the flop with AQ on T32r for example and then the turn is an ace and they check back. there is alot you can take from that and alot more you can assume and pencil in as you say, and then add exclamation marks the more sure you are. And yes reads take time to build, and sometimes they will be wrong but if you're wrong you can correct them and suck it up and reload.
also remember that you'll have more decision pre and on the flop than you will on the river so try and take more time over later street decisions as the pot will always be bigger and therefore the decisions more important.
When you'r putting someone on a hand range throughout a hand.....
Say he has raised from 2nd position and is a TAG player.....
Hs opening 4x with any pair, suited pics, an occasionally mid con's.
The flop is 2 5 8 rainbow, he c bets, and u float from the button with a hand that doesnt really matter, say AK.
The turn is a 9, brings a flush draw.
He bets again. U call.
Turn pairs the 2 which is a blank unless he has quad 2's.
He bets again.
Is the hand range u have him on on the turn, still the hand range u have him on now, or is it constantly changing according to what he does?
I trying to explain what I mean and not doing it well. If you have him on a range of hands on the turn, is this the same range u sud be basing ur decision on on the river, no matter what his action is??
Surely if every action he makes, defines his range in your own mind, it will be too easy for him to be deceptive and run over me?
k k 2 2 on the board, and the river brings a k and he shoves the river, now the range of hands u can have him on here is the last king, or pocket aces - but prior to the river, he cud have a wide range of hands?
Wheres the line come in between percieved and actual range come in?
Haha sorry I tried to explain it the best I could, I got a B at A level english language honest!!! Skype anyone??? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
I have skype but your avatar scares me.
Imagine someone never folds pre and only continues post flop with a pair or a draw.
so you raise and he calls
his range is any two cards.
flop K72r you bet and he calls with all Kx 7x 2x hands + 22/77/KK/K7/K2/72
when you are then presented with a turn card, you can reduce his range from this initial point. if he calls again on the turn of '3o' and you think he folds everything below a K. its now Kx/22/77/KK/K7/K2/72
To then change this slightly, change the person into a TAG player and allow for them to fold a whole bunch of junk preflop, you allow for them to reraise their bigger hands.
So say they have a range of (regardless of whether this is good or bad): a) 22-TT/KQo/56s-KQs/KJs/AQo/AQs/AJs [10.1% of hands]
if they were to c/c the flop you have to look at what hands out of (a) he could continue in the hand with a check call, eg (22/77/88-TT/Kx/7x [6.2%]. If he were to c/r the flop you would narrow the range more. and see that suddenly his range has got very small for value ie (22/77 and possibly KQ or KJ [but it is quite hard to get paid off with those hands on such a wet board]). 6 combinations of sets and only possibly some top pair hands is alot less than the 10% of starting hands they called you with preflop [it's 0.5%].
Now imagine your player is loosey goosey preflop and check raises the flop quite alot whilst also check calling some too.
Their calling range pre could be b) JJ-22, AQs-ATs, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, 42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o [25%]
On the K72r flop if they c/r top pair+ that's 5.4% of starting hands or 1 in 5 of the times they have called preflop. This larger amount is because of the abundance of Kx hands in the calling range + the benefit of me adding K7s to 1) round up to 25% and 2) allow him to flop 2pr on K72!
Using this process of starting with a certain range and shaving off hands here and there using both the information given by your opponent and your analysis of what they are capable of and how they are thinking allows you to at each street judge what is your best course of action overall.
Ok.... When you'r putting someone on a hand range throughout a hand..... Say he has raised from 2nd position and is a TAG player..... Hs opening 4x with any pair, suited pics, an occasionally mid con's. The flop is 2 5 8 rainbow, he c bets, and u float from the button with a hand that doesnt really matter, say AK. The turn is a 9, brings a flush draw. He bets again. U call. Turn pairs the 2 which is a blank unless he has quad 2's. He bets again. Is the hand range u have him on on the turn, still the hand range u have him on now, or is it constantly changing according to what he does? I trying to explain what I mean and not doing it well. If you have him on a range of hands on the turn, is this the same range u sud be basing ur decision on on the river, no matter what his action is?? Surely if every action he makes, defines his range in your own mind, it will be too easy for him to be deceptive and run over me? k k 2 2 on the board, and the river brings a k and he shoves the river, now the range of hands u can have him on here is the last king, or pocket aces - but prior to the river, he cud have a wide range of hands? Wheres the line come in between percieved and actual range come in? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
you start with a range of lots of hands and reduce it as you go, if you assume people are playing abc ie protecting hands, betting their good hands etc then you can take information from them either betting a flop or checking it behind. If the board is AK6r and the preflop raiser checks behind you can be quite sure he most likely has either Kx or a pp 77-QQ.
To deal with percieved/actual imagine this positional situation.
you limp in MP with 88, blackfish the fish raises the btn he's a fish so he does this alot but you haven't played with him before so you don't know. I have played with him though and know all about his fishtastic-ness and how often he raises the button so I re-raise my two paper napkins.
It is now back on you and you have seen the action go raise and re-raise, regardless of the fact the raiser is in position I have more often than not got some pretty good hand. If you don't have enough money to comfortably set mine then you have to fold preflop. Against my perceived range that is a good fold because its QQ+/AKo+ (2.6% of hands). The actual range could be something more like QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+ (5.9% of hands) or over twice as often as you may have thought.
Remember everyone is playing their two cards, but they don't hit very often so more often than not people have to represent 2 other cards,. If by the river they are representing a specific strength of hand ie flush but their play throughout the hand hasn't credibly represented it then you should be suspicious.
edit in the example where you mention a KK22K board situation you need to realise that facing a bet on the river you have to deduce from your knowledge of the player whether you think they are capable of value betting 88-QQ, of bluffing with a 2!, of betting air to take you off a chop when you have no hand etc if he is only capable of betting 22 or Kx then you can really narrow down the amount of combinations that he could hold.
I read all that last night, and again this morning, and it made more sense the 2nd time, so hopefully if I keep going through it and trying to make my own examples up I'll start to get it all.
I read all that last night, and again this morning, and it made more sense the 2nd time, so hopefully if I keep going through it and trying to make my own examples up I'll start to get it all. Good stuff, ty. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Just post hands and write any guff you're thinking about it. If it's wrong you'll be told so and can improve if it's not then you can build on what you are already doing right.
You know you said how if you wanted to 3 bet someone wide from the blinds because you thought they were abusing the button, that you might have a 3 bet range of QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+
Does this mean that you hardly ever 3 bet hands such as JJ/TT/AQs/AQo etc? Because I would quite often with these types of hands, maybe not so much if I thought someone had a tight opening range, but definitely to the more laggy players. Are we not better off 3 betting pre rather than calling from the blinds and playing the hand oop?
Great posts beaneh. You know you said how if you wanted to 3 bet someone wide from the blinds because you thought they were abusing the button, that you might have a 3 bet range of QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+ Does this mean that you hardly ever 3 bet hands such as JJ/TT/AQs/AQo etc? Because I would quite often with these types of hands, maybe not so much if I thought someone had a tight opening range, but definitely to the more laggy players. Are we not better off 3 betting pre rather than calling from the blinds and playing the hand oop? Posted by yb
The ranges I gave were because you have to start somewhere. People aren't likely going to write down a guide of the exact types of hands they play and especially not then tell their opponents. As you say you want to construct your range to relate to the person/people you are playing against.
With regards to 3 and 4 betting competent players you need to construct your range with a view to playing well against their strategy which obviously comes from reads.
Comments
If I bet fold, Its gonna cost me the size of a value bet, plus the pot, so v bet of £7-10ish - to get value from the hands he cud call with that I can beat....
So if he raises me , I lose a total of £23ish.
Check call, means I lose the same if I'm behind, but find out for sure wether I'm beat or not.......
I might lose out on £7-10 of value, but so many times I recover this value by winning the main pot, and maybe catching a bluff?
I hate bettin and allowing myself to be bluffed, when for the same price, I can get my answer, and If its the wrong one, Im losing the same as I would anyway......
......check call???
How about in position? - deffo make a bet then right?
Surely u have to play for hours with a player to get this info?
I only 2 table, and check HH on any pot of substance and take notes, especially the ones Im not in.
I rarely find info like this.(maybe coz nobody does anything apart from check/call/donk bet/ and shove at nl30)
Also how many times must you see a player make a certain action, before u can pencil it in and rely on it as a solid read?
When you'r putting someone on a hand range throughout a hand.....
Say he has raised from 2nd position and is a TAG player.....
Hs opening 4x with any pair, suited pics, an occasionally mid con's.
The flop is 2 5 8 rainbow, he c bets, and u float from the button with a hand that doesnt really matter, say AK.
The turn is a 9, brings a flush draw.
He bets again. U call.
Turn pairs the 2 which is a blank unless he has quad 2's.
He bets again.
Is the hand range u have him on on the turn, still the hand range u have him on now, or is it constantly changing according to what he does?
I trying to explain what I mean and not doing it well. If you have him on a range of hands on the turn, is this the same range u sud be basing ur decision on on the river, no matter what his action is??
Surely if every action he makes, defines his range in your own mind, it will be too easy for him to be deceptive and run over me?
k k 2 2 on the board, and the river brings a k and he shoves the river, now the range of hands u can have him on here is the last king, or pocket aces - but prior to the river, he cud have a wide range of hands?
Wheres the line come in between percieved and actual range come in?
Haha sorry I tried to explain it the best I could, I got a B at A level english language honest!!!
Skype anyone???
So say they have a range of (regardless of whether this is good or bad): a) 22-TT/KQo/56s-KQs/KJs/AQo/AQs/AJs [10.1% of hands]
I read all that last night, and again this morning, and it made more sense the 2nd time, so hopefully if I keep going through it and trying to make my own examples up I'll start to get it all.
Good stuff, ty.
You know you said how if you wanted to 3 bet someone wide from the blinds because you thought they were abusing the button, that you might have a 3 bet range of QQ+/67s-QJs/57s-J9s/AKo+
Does this mean that you hardly ever 3 bet hands such as JJ/TT/AQs/AQo etc? Because I would quite often with these types of hands, maybe not so much if I thought someone had a tight opening range, but definitely to the more laggy players. Are we not better off 3 betting pre rather than calling from the blinds and playing the hand oop?