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the hand

freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic
pokerstace Small blind  400.00 400.00 29370.00
tikay1 Big blind  800.00 1200.00 15993.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • A
     
simuk Fold     
penguin7 Raise  2400.00 3600.00 8389.50
freechips1 Raise  7200.00 10800.00 7814.00
pokerstace Fold     
tikay1 All-in  15993.00 26793.00 0.00
penguin7 Fold     
freechips1 Fold     
tikay1 Muck     
tikay1 Win  17200.00  17200.00
tikay1 Return  9593.00 0.00 26793.00
«1

Comments

  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    ok this is the hand and most know what mr tikay held.
    I raised to 7200 to set penguin all in but also leave myself 10 bb if small or bb rr shoved.
    Should i of pushed pre? called the allin by tikay?
    I had to put tikay on AK, AA, KK, QQ pos JJ im sure he is folding 10,10 and AQ
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    he's so nitty you HAVE to fold.

    it's really bad but you have to. just vomit a little bit whilst you do.

    you could make your 3 bet 5.2k easily and have no difference in outcomes except save yourself a little bit more.
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    ok this is the hand and most know what mr tikay held. I raised to 7200 to set penguin all in but also leave myself 10 bb if small or bb rr shoved. Should i of pushed pre? called the allin by tikay? I had to put tikay on AK, AA, KK, QQ pos JJ im sure he is folding 10,10 and AQ
    Posted by freechips1
    i was railing at the time and i announced tikays hand was AA or KK imo.

    In my experience of playing tikay he only has these two hands here.



  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    I think your 3 bet size is pretty terrible tbh. I'd either shove pre (which I prefer) or make it ~5500 in which case you can fold when Tikay shoves. As played having put half my stack I'm calling this.
  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    i still stand by my fold and i think its always the correct fold but a few said in the chatbox, one a high stakes sky reg said you have to call after putting in half your stack in. Im unsure of this as the point of my raise was to set penguin allin but leave 10bb if sb/bb shoves.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : i was railing at the time and i announced tikays hand was AA or KK imo. In my experience of playing tikay he only has these two hands here.
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    I don't think TK knows there are other hands.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited August 2010

    Correct fold against me there, freechips.

    I'm happy to let "the boyz" continue to think I'm Mr Nitty-Nit-Nit, but the way that hand played out, I could ONLY re-shove with AA or KK because you were pot-stuck, & most players in your spot would feel obliged (wrongly imo) to call. And I had already sussed that.

    If peeps wanna think I'm always nitty, fine by me, but I am VERY careful when I 3-bet, as it can ONLY be done against a good player, & one who is playing deeper than you were.

    To my mind, an easy fold, but not one which many can make. Only a winning player can make the fold. 

    Nice one. 
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : I don't think TK knows there are other hands.
    Posted by beaneh
    Lol, bless you. That's what you are meant to think.

    I only played AA & KK in Cardiff this week, too. ;)
  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    tikay i also see it as a standard fold. its got to me alot lately as im strugling to move from 100nl to 200nl and the fact that a 200nl+ reg who is good and i do respect said i should of called has confused me.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    [QUOTE]tikay i also see it as a standard fold. its got to me alot lately as im strugling to move from 100nl to 200nl and the fact that a 200nl+ reg who is good and i do respect said i should of called has confused me.
    Posted by freechips1

    It's the fashion to say "you can't fold there", but be brave, & have the courage of your convictions. Play is generally much looser these days, especially as so many players are staked or backed, & the adage that you must protect your Tourney life has been forgotten by the subscribers to something little known, called "GroupThink". Everyone thinks it, so you need to have courage to think your own thoughts when your peers all say you are wrong.

    Be brave, & swim against the tide if you think you are right. Then you will be that rarest breed - someone who can survive in poker. Very few do, or can.

    PS - You have EVERY chance of walking into A-K there, too, & being crushed. Standard fold.

    They have things called "Hero Calls" these days. Lol at that. Try "hero folds".
  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    I think your 3 bet size is pretty terrible tbh. I'd either shove pre (which I prefer) or make it ~5500 in which case you can fold when Tikay shoves. As played having put half my stack I'm calling this.
    Posted by yb
    you call although your reads say your against AA, KK, QQ, AK ? you have 10 bb left.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    That is 100% situation dependent.

    My bankroll survives healthily year after year because players think they have to calll there. Well sometimes they do - but it's not a default, not by ANY means, it's situation dependent.

    Forget the Maths, think of the situation. There will usually be a better spot.
  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    isnt the point that if u 3bet to ~5200 that effectively puts penquin all in anyway, but if sum1 cold 4bets u can fold, but once you've made it 7200 u have 2 call?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
  • tikay1tikay1 Member Posts: 741
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
    Posted by freechips1
    No, that's incorrect.

    I see you as a loose player in Omaha, & you are, because you play Omaha "for fun", & a break from shove & hope Hold Em.

    In Hold Em, I dont see you as loose at all. Aggro yes, loose, no.
  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : If i raise small then wont tikay see that as a squeeze and reshove with air? I know tikay sees me as a loose player.
    Posted by freechips1
    fair point but why does a small 3bet mean weakness?
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : you call although your reads say your against AA, KK, QQ, AK ? you have 10 bb left.
    Posted by freechips1
    Yep I'd still call even against a tight range having put half my chips in the middle. Basically you can fold and have < 10bbs or call and have the chance to get a stack of over 40bbs and then go ftw!

    You need less than 25% equity and you've got that, its not as much as a snap call as in a cash game because you can't reload but I'd still call regardless.
  • freechips1freechips1 Member Posts: 861
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: the hand:
    In Response to Re: the hand : fair point but why does a small 3bet mean weakness?
    Posted by SHANXTA
    as i said he sees me as loose or so i thought, to 3bet is a great way to build your stack.
    We have played together many times (mostly omaha) and he has seen me 3 sometimes 4 bet light, so if i did 3 bet small he would prob shove with A,J or 10,10, i think then i have to fold the best hand.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    The 3 bet size pre is the problem as I said. make it 5200 or shove.

    Once you do this it's a range+maths problem.

    ~8.8 to call into ~26 =3:1 or 25%

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 27.626%   27.21% 00.42%       5590413    86133.00   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 72.374%   71.95% 00.42%      14784969    86133.00   { QQ+ }

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 25.410%   25.06% 00.35%       3861636    54240.00   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 74.590%   74.24% 00.35%      11440620    54240.00   { KK+ }

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 28.607%   27.30% 01.31%      11219088   537196.50   { AhQh }
    Hand 1: 71.393%   70.09% 01.31%      28801815   537196.50   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


    Technically it's a correct call even if TK has only KK or AA.

    What that means is you increase your stack slightly every time you call. 

    THAT is a winning play. 


    The problem stems from the 3 decision/bet sizing pre. Once you make it this big don't fold, if you make it 5200 DO fold.





  • Batkin88Batkin88 Member Posts: 1,682
    edited August 2010
    Good fold! Simple as that you call u run into a monster which ur 90 percent certain is better than urs! U fold u grit ur teeth and carry on! I would of called and lost and people would be saying how can u call that it was obvious he had aa kk !! GOOD FOLD lol 
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