The 3 bet size pre is the problem as I said. make it 5200 or shove. Once you do this it's a range+maths problem. ~8.8 to call into ~26 =3:1 or 25% equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 27.626% 27.21% 00.42% 5590413 86133.00 { AhQh } Hand 1: 72.374% 71.95% 00.42% 14784969 86133.00 { QQ+ } equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 25.410% 25.06% 00.35% 3861636 54240.00 { AhQh } Hand 1: 74.590% 74.24% 00.35% 11440620 54240.00 { KK+ } equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 28.607% 27.30% 01.31% 11219088 537196.50 { AhQh } Hand 1: 71.393% 70.09% 01.31% 28801815 537196.50 { QQ+, AKs, AKo } Technically it's a correct call even if TK has only KK or AA. What that means is you increase your stack slightly every time you call. THAT is a winning play. The problem stems from the 3 decision/bet sizing pre. Once you make it this big don't fold, if you make it 5200 DO fold. Posted by beaneh
if i raise to 5200 and he shoves, is his range still the same?
maths vs tournament survival hmmm Posted by GREGHOGG
It's not about 'survival' and that's the whole point. Tournaments are about top heavy prize structures which is why you have to play for first, if we can either do a +chip play for a 40bb pot or fold and leave us 8 bb's you should do the +chip play all day long and thirty six times on sunday.
i think his range is wider if i only raise to 5200. what is my % of winning the hand if his range is A,J+ and 10,10+ and also maybe air as he dont see me as pot stuck? Do i now still have to call vs his wider range?
i think his range is wider if i only raise to 5200. what is my % of winning the hand if his range is A,J+ and 10,10+ and also maybe air as he dont see me as pot stuck? Do i now still have to call vs his wider range? Posted by freechips1
with this player there is no 'air' air = AJ.
Why cant you stove this yourself?!
If you make it 5200 and he jams 16k what odds do you need to cawl? Compare that to the stoves below.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.822% 28.17% 09.65% 21705783 7437604.50 { AhQh }
In Response to Re: the hand : It's not about 'survival' and that's the whole point.Tournaments are about top heavy prize structures which is why you have to play for first, if we can either do a +chip play for a 40bb pot or fold and leave us 8 bb's you should do the +chip play all day long and thirty six times on sunday. Posted by beaneh
Some players view tournament survival (i.e making a min cash) as essential to remain profitable players and therefore do not make "maths" calls that put their tournament lives at risk if they are clearly behind.
Other types of players always go ftw every time making maths calls, and if enough volume is played over time this is too a profitable strategy and probably, but not necessarily, a more profitable strategy.
I guess we all play mtts the way we are comfortable with tho.
In Response to Re: the hand : Some players view tournament survival (i.e making a min cash) as essential to remain profitable players and therefore do not make "maths" calls that put their tournament lives at risk if they are clearly behind. Other types of players always go ftw every time making maths calls, and if enough volume is played over time this is too a profitable strategy and probably, but not necessarily, a more profitable strategy. I guess we all play mtts the way we are comfortable with tho. Posted by GREGHOGG
If you are only ever playing for the min cash then you will be a losing tournie player because all the money is up top, it's that simple. You cant min cash every other event, in this instance putting in half your stack and then folding is a horrific result longterm and short term.
The idea that you can be 'clearly behind' doesn't make sense if making the call is better than folding.
so i have 50% equity? so i have to call? i raise small i have to call, if i raise big i have to call? My raise size was to leave me enogh to grt back into it. i dont think i will ever call off my tourny life when i know im a 25% dog when i have 10 ish BB left, if i would of only had 6 BB left then i always call. Why didnt i stove it myself? come on you know i hate computers and all about them. I still think this is a on the fence thing, i prob think the best move was to shove pre b4 tikay. My thoughts at the time was to shove but then i thought i have a tight player sat behind and im only ever getting called when im a big dog so i will leave myself enough to shove over a open limp and also open btn shove on the blinds. I have to be honest im still very unsure if this was a good or bad fold, as said i dont want to call off my life as a 25% dog
my first post is without running the numbers, similarly I also said i'd never rr to that much pre so i'd never be in such a stupidly close spot, if i'd made it 5200 I snap fold to the shove but lets be honest i've jammed this pre without even thinking; if he has a better hand behind so be it I plan to gettttt theeeeeeeere!
The Maths etc says you have to call but I fold in your spot also unless I'm in a super gambling mood. Everyone knows Tony is pretty tight but even if you eliminate him from the equation and put say....lolufold in Tony's spot. Do you still fold ?
Any good thinking player will notice instantly you have put half your stack in and expect you to call their shove 90% of the time from the BB with said action. What kind of hands do you expect to come up against at best ? 1010 or JJ ? In which case your flipping but the more likely hands AA/kk/QQ/AK your a pretty big dog and need to get lucky to double / survive.
Personally I 3-bet less in that situation or more than likely jam pre. The beauty of poker is everyone plays differently but knowing your opponents range in that spot is pretty important and the whole of sky knew Tony's.
Ola, The hand was a strange one from my point of view. The Maths etc says you have to call but I fold in your spot also unless I'm in a super gambling mood. Everyone knows Tony is pretty tight but even if you eliminate him from the equation and put say....lolufold in Tony's spot. Do you still fold ? Any good thinking player will notice instantly you have put half your stack in and expect you to call their shove 90% of the time from the BB with said action. What kind of hands do you expect to come up against at best ? 1010 or JJ ? In which case your flipping but the more likely hands AA/kk/QQ/AK your a pretty big dog and need to get lucky to double / survive. Personally I 3-bet less in that situation or more than likely jam pre. The beauty of poker is everyone plays differently but knowing your opponents range in that spot is pretty important and the whole of sky knew Tony's. Posted by Nutter5932
Anyone else think Tony may have been using his image to his advantage, with sod all here ???
Comments
maths vs tournament survival
hmmm
what is my % of winning the hand if his range is A,J+ and 10,10+ and also maybe air as he dont see me as pot stuck?
Do i now still have to call vs his wider range?
Other types of players always go ftw every time making maths calls, and if enough volume is played over time this is too a profitable strategy and probably, but not necessarily, a more profitable strategy.
I guess we all play mtts the way we are comfortable with tho.
i raise small i have to call, if i raise big i have to call?
My raise size was to leave me enogh to grt back into it.
i dont think i will ever call off my tourny life when i know im a 25% dog when i have 10 ish BB left, if i would of only had 6 BB left then i always call.
Why didnt i stove it myself? come on you know i hate computers and all about them.
I still think this is a on the fence thing, i prob think the best move was to shove pre b4 tikay.
My thoughts at the time was to shove but then i thought i have a tight player sat behind and im only ever getting called when im a big dog so i will leave myself enough to shove over a open limp and also open btn shove on the blinds.
I have to be honest im still very unsure if this was a good or bad fold, as said i dont want to call off my life as a 25% dog
Thats what maths does to me.
The hand was shown on TV and he had KK.