'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***)

J-Hartigan

Yes, it is of course The Big Game: a £1,000 buy-in, six-max No Limit Hold'em cash game, forming the crux of tonight's edition of Master Cash.

Trevor and I look forward to commentating on some superb poker from 8pm.  Please join us by switching your Sky box to channel 865.  In fact, do it now, in case you forget later!

As well as drooling over the £5/£10 action, we'll also feature some hands from the lower limits and read out questions and comments posted in this forum thread or e-mailed to skyopen@bskyb.com

So, what's tonight's hot topic?  Well, it's a subject that's been discussed many times in the poker community and seems to be a recurring debate on this forum...

Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?"  Is the skill-set for these variations of the game really that different?

Here's my take on the subject (which may ruffle a few feathers): I've never come across a good cash player who couldn't switch to tournaments with some degree of success, but I know plenty of excellent tournament players who consistently lose at the cash tables.

Let the discussion commence!

scotty77

cash players are used to playing deeper stacked at a constant basis.  this leads to far far far harder decisions.

also cash players will be playing with other reg cash players, who are also very good which in turn leads to meta-game.

in tournies you will rarely be sitting with many regs, and a lot of the time your stack size will dictate your play.

edit:  James have you had a chance to see Back to the Future on the big screen?  i was born in 86 so didn't get the chance the first time round....saw it the other day and was blown away!

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

cash players are used to playing deeper stacked at a constant basis.  this leads to far far far harder decisions. also cash players will be playing with other reg cash players, who are also very good which in turn leads to meta-game. in tournies you will rarely be sitting with many regs, and a lot of the time your stack size will dictate your play. edit:  James have you had a chance to see Back to the Future on the big screen?  i was born in 86 so didn't get the chance the first time round....saw it the other day and was blown away!
Posted by scotty77

Interesting thoughts, Ryan.

No, I haven't had the chance to see 'Back to the Future' at the cinema.  I struggle to find time to see new releases these days, let alone re-issues.  Sigh.

TommyD

In Response to 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Yes, it is of course The Big Game: a £1,000 buy-in, six-max No Limit Hold'em cash game, forming the crux of tonight's edition of Master Cash. Trevor and I look forward to commentating on some superb poker from 8pm.  Please join us by switching your Sky box to channel 865.  In fact, do it now, in case you forget later! As well as drooling over the £5/£10 action, we'll also feature some hands from the lower limits and read out questions and comments posted in this forum thread or e-mailed to skyopen@bskyb.com So, what's tonight's hot topic?  Well, it's a subject that's been discussed many times in the poker community and seems to be a recurring debate on this forum... Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?"  Is the skill-set for these variations of the game really that different? Here's my take on the subject (which may ruffle a few feathers): I've never come across a good cash player who couldn't switch to tournaments with some degree of success, but I know plenty of excellent tournament players who consistently lose at the cash tables. Let the discussion commence!
Posted by J-Hartigan

I think you need to define 'some degree' a little.  How would you regard the records of Tom Dwan or Patrik Antonius?  They both have a couple of major cashes (Dwan with a 2nd in a WSOP event, Antonius 2nd in a WPT).  However their tournament success pales in comparison to their cash success and the record of many tourney pros.

KKarlos93

TBH I felt very hard done by last week, James you seemed to isolate me as a slow roller Trevor you compared me to a footballer being racist!

I DO NOT SLOW ROLL and to compare slow rolling to racism is just plain wrong – racism is illegal and has no place in the world today - slow rolling is using the time you are given in a game of poker, for god sake it’s like bad beats if you can’t take it don’t play poker!

All I said was that some players use it as a tactic to gain an advantage for example Tony G and that if you get and edge then it’s worth it, in the modern game any edge is better than none isn’t it???

Next thing I know some plank called bandini is saying he will nut someone who slow rolls him, see you at a spt sometime bandini and I will use it to get you kicked out of the tournament and if you nut me it will hurt you more than me lol

Rant over now the difference between a cash and tourney player, cash player's do generally sit with a deep stack in relation to the blinds, tourney players have to make those push or fold decisions much more often, position play is much more important in cash as well

bandini

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

TBH I felt very hard done by last week, James you seemed to isolate me as a slow roller Trevor you compared me to a footballer being racist! I DO NOT SLOW ROLL and to compare slow rolling to racism is just plain wrong – racism is illegal and has no place in the world today - slow rolling is using the time you are given in a game of poker, for god sake it’s like bad beats if you can’t take it don’t play poker! All I said was that some players use it as a tactic to gain an advantage for example Tony G and that if you get and edge then it’s worth it, in the modern game any edge is better than none isn’t it??? Next thing I know some plank called bandini is saying he will nut someone who slow rolls him, see you at a spt sometime bandini and I will use it to get you kicked out of the tournament and if you nut me it will hurt you more than me lol Rant over now the difference between a cash and tourney player, cash player's do generally sit with a deep stack in relation to the blinds, tourney players have to make those push or fold decisions much more often, position play is much more important in cash as well
Posted by KKarlos93

No, I said my preferred torture method for someone that laughed at me in the chat box after giving me a bad beat would be a flying head-but self delivered.

And I'm one of the hardest keyboard warriors out there by the way. Be wary ;-)

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

TBH I felt very hard done by last week, James you seemed to isolate me as a slow roller Trevor you compared me to a footballer being racist! I DO NOT SLOW ROLL and to compare slow rolling to racism is just plain wrong – racism is illegal and has no place in the world today - slow rolling is using the time you are given in a game of poker, for god sake it’s like bad beats if you can’t take it don’t play poker! All I said was that some players use it as a tactic to gain an advantage for example Tony G and that if you get and edge then it’s worth it, in the modern game any edge is better than none isn’t it??? Next thing I know some plank called bandini is saying he will nut someone who slow rolls him, see you at a spt sometime bandini and I will use it to get you kicked out of the tournament and if you nut me it will hurt you more than me lol Rant over now the difference between a cash and tourney player, cash player's do generally sit with a deep stack in relation to the blinds, tourney players have to make those push or fold decisions much more often, position play is much more important in cash as well
Posted by KKarlos93

Sorry to hear that, Karlos.

I did not mean to imply that you are a slow-roller.  I remember reading your contribution on the subject - which included the line, "I myself don't slow-roll."  I simply presented a counter argument to your claim that it's "part of the game" both in writing (in the forum thread) and on the live show.  Apologies, if you inferred any kind of personal criticism.  (Your post about the KK vs AA hand suggests you took everyone's comments in the spirit in which they were intended!)

Now, I know for a fact that Trevor did NOT compare you to a racist!  He simply asked: where does one draw the line when it comes to etiquette in sport?  You're right to point out that slow-rolling is neither illegal or against the basic (highly subjective) rules of poker.  However, I still maintain it's sad that people view it as an acceptable tactic.

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

In Response to 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : I think you need to define 'some degree' a little.  How would you regard the records of Tom Dwan or Patrik Antonius?  They both have a couple of major cashes (Dwan with a 2nd in a WSOP event, Antonius 2nd in a WPT).  However their tournament success pales in comparison to their cash success and the record of many tourney pros.
Posted by TommyD

lol, Tommy - you've answered your own question!

Antonius cashed for more than $1m in that WPT event.  He also won EPT Baden in Season 2 and the Scandinavian Poker Championships in 2005.  Plus, he came third in the $10k PLO World Championship at the WSOP in 2007 and seventh in the $10k PLHE event in 2008.  I define that as "some success."

durrrr has played very few live tournaments compared to many of his contemporaries, but still has tournament winnings of nearly $1.6m - including $388,000 in that WSOP event.

TiaDalma

Hi James. Totally away from the subject of poker for a minute - r u feeling better? I have been off work all week myself with a viral ear and throat Infection and just wanted to say - I feel your pain - literally! Ibruprofen ftw - thankfully

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Hi James. Totally away from the subject of poker for a minute - r u feeling better? I have been off work all week myself with a viral ear and throat Infection and just wanted to say - I feel your pain - literally! Ibruprofen ftw - thankfully
Posted by TiaDalma

Thank you for asking!  Yes, I'm feeling much better, although I still have a really nasty cough.  I hope our sound guru is at the top of her game this evening, because my mic will probably need muting on a regular basis

J-Hartigan

Hmmm...

Just re-read TommyD's post.

Is there such a thing as a (live) "tournament pro" who doesn't...

a) fund his buy-ins from his winnings at the cash tables?
b) get bought in by his sponsor?
c) have backers?

jacko999

Hi there james pls can you tell me what low limits you are gonna show first so can get on the table now ready for it as last week i really enjoyed it cheers jacko999..

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Hi there james pls can you tell me what low limits you are gonna show first so can get on the table now ready for it as last week i really enjoyed it cheers jacko999..
Posted by jacko999

Master Cash 9 & 10 - 25p/50p

MAXALLY

Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?"  Is the skill-set for these variations of the game really that different?

Oh good the cash player v tournament player 'debate'.

 I will first of all state that I am a MTT player and do not play cash. I used to play a lot of cash when I first started on line poker on other sites and TBH lost a lot more than I won. Hence, when I joined Sky (about a year ago) I decided just to play mainly tournaments. I was aware that making a healthy profit this way was nigh in impossible due to the high variance in MTT, however, I am still in profit overall (albeit a small figure).

The way I see it is you have to have some level of skill to play tournament poker over 3/4 hour periods for little reward in the main. Decisions/bet sizes/pot odds etc etc etc are all relevant in MTT no matter what level you play at. In cash games though (and this is just my personnel view) how much skill does it take to continue losing but due to a large BR, keep reloading regardless of the cost? I have every respect for the bigger cash players on here but that old adage does come into the equation somewhere down the line i.e money talks. If players make mistakes or  lose a race for their stack they just reload and carry on (If they have the BR obv). Whereas in a tournament, the player is grinding away knowing possibly one error/suck out will cost him his tournament live.

I am therefore going to conclude that IMHO it is 50/50 on which is the more skillful. There is nothing like sitting on the fence but I don't really want to upset anyone this week!!

One final point which may get a reaction but I will say it how I see it anyway.....I believe there is more respect shown by tournament players towards cash 'specialists' than respect shown the other way. I feel this week on the forum has highlighted this some what but at the end of the day, WE ALL play poker. 

Hope you have a good show. Are you showing any tournament play tonight or is it all CASH?....lol )

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?"  Is the skill-set for these variations of the game really that different? Oh good the cash player v tournament player ' debate' .  I will first of all state that I am a MTT player and do not play cash. I used to play a lot of cash when I first started on line poker on other sites and TBH lost a lot more than I won. Hence, when I joined Sky (about a year ago) I decided just to play mainly tournaments. I was aware that making a healthy profit this way was nigh in impossible due to the high variance in MTT, however, I am still in profit overall (albeit a small figure). The way I see it is you have to have some level of skill to play tournament poker over 3/4 hour periods for little reward in the main. Decisions/bet sizes/pot odds etc etc etc are all relevant in MTT no matter what level you play at. In cash games though (and this is just my personnel view) how much skill does it take to continue losing but due to a large BR, keep reloading regardless of the cost? I have every respect for the bigger cash players on here but that old adage does come into the equation somewhere down the line i.e money talks. If players make mistakes or  lose a race for their stack they just reload and carry on (If they have the BR obv). Whereas in a tournament, the player is grinding away knowing possibly one error/suck out will cost him his tournament live. I am therefore going to conclude that IMHO it is 50/50 on which is the more skillful. There is nothing like sitting on the fence but I don't really want to upset anyone this week!! One final point which may get a reaction but I will say it how I see it anyway.....I believe there is more respect shown by tournament players towards cash 'specialists' than respect shown the other way. I feel this week on the forum has highlighted this some what but at the end of the day, WE ALL play poker.  Hope you have a good show. Are you showing any tournament play tonight or is it all CASH?....lol )
Posted by MAXALLY

Great stuff, Alan.  Thanks for your contribution.  What does everyone else think about the perceived lack of respect for "tournament players" from "cash specialists?"

Oh, allow me to answer one of your questions:

"How much skill does it take to continue losing but due to a large BR, keep reloading regardless of the cost?"

It takes a LOT of skill to build up that bankroll in the first place, so that you're able to counter variance by reloading and getting back in the game!

DTWBANDIT

 Hi James have a great show tonight

    btw could you tell me what Slow - Rolling is as i haven't got a glue?

DOHHHHHHH

Tourny players don't get respect from good cash players, as they are capable of doing what the tourny players do anyway........

let me give you an example....

The Williams sisters, Venus, and Serena, can win any tennis tournament they enter if they can be bothered.

The doubles tournament, requires slightly different skills, but the basics are still there. (serve, volley, groundstrokes etc)

The Williams sister could walk straight off their singles court, onto the doubles court, and win the doubles title, but the rewards, both intrinsic, and extrinsic, aren't the same as crushing the best players on a regular basis in the main game!

bandini

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Tourny players don't get respect from good cash players, as they are capable of doing what the tourny players do anyway........ let me give you an example.... The Williams sisters, Venus, and Serena, can win any tennis tournament they enter if they can be bothered. The doubles tournament, requires slightly different skills, but the basics are still there. (serve, volley, groundstrokes etc) The Williams sister could walk straight off their singles court, onto the doubles court, and win the doubles title, but the rewards, both intrinsic, and extrinsic, aren't the same as crushing the best players in a regular basis in the main game!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

MTTs for show,

Cash for Doh.

I'll get my coat.

offshoot

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?"  Is the skill-set for these variations of the game really that different? Oh good the cash player v tournament player ' debate' .  I will first of all state that I am a MTT player and do not play cash. I used to play a lot of cash when I first started on line poker on other sites and TBH lost a lot more than I won. Hence, when I joined Sky (about a year ago) I decided just to play mainly tournaments. I was aware that making a healthy profit this way was nigh in impossible due to the high variance in MTT, however, I am still in profit overall (albeit a small figure). The way I see it is you have to have some level of skill to play tournament poker over 3/4 hour periods for little reward in the main. Decisions/bet sizes/pot odds etc etc etc are all relevant in MTT no matter what level you play at. In cash games though (and this is just my personnel view) how much skill does it take to continue losing but due to a large BR, keep reloading regardless of the cost? I have every respect for the bigger cash players on here but that old adage does come into the equation somewhere down the line i.e money talks. If players make mistakes or  lose a race for their stack they just reload and carry on (If they have the BR obv). Whereas in a tournament, the player is grinding away knowing possibly one error/suck out will cost him his tournament live. I am therefore going to conclude that IMHO it is 50/50 on which is the more skillful. There is nothing like sitting on the fence but I don't really want to upset anyone this week!! One final point which may get a reaction but I will say it how I see it anyway.....I believe there is more respect shown by tournament players towards cash 'specialists' than respect shown the other way. I feel this week on the forum has highlighted this some what but at the end of the day, WE ALL play poker.  Hope you have a good show. Are you showing any tournament play tonight or is it all CASH?....lol )
Posted by MAXALLY

weak argument. Your saying cash players can "just reload" but the whole point is if you keep having to reload youre not gonna be making any money. The skill comes in getting your money in as favourite and being able to not tilt and just carry on playing your A game even when you do get sucked out on.

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***):

In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : Great stuff, Alan.  Thanks for your contribution.  What does everyone else think about the perceived lack of respect for "tournament players" from "cash specialists?" Oh, allow me to answer one of your questions: "How much skill does it take to continue losing but due to a large BR, keep reloading regardless of the cost?" It takes a LOT of skill to build up that bankroll in the first place, so that you're able to counter variance by reloading and getting back in the game!
Posted by J-Hartigan

I think you misconstrued my point James. I fully understand and appreciate a player MUST have the skillz to BUILD up a BR and full kudos to them if cash players have managed to do this. My point, fwiw, was it takes 30 secs to top up when playing cash regardless of how the situation arose in the need for topping up. There are less skilful cash players who make mistakes but continually top up because they can! Nothing to do with their skill level, just their BR. Not all players build a BR up.....some start with a large roll to begin with )

debdobs_67

Im with you on this one maxally,yes to the players who HAVE built a bankroll vwd but alot of players i know are quite simply well off and play regardless of whether they are any good or not.Imo tourny players have a better skillset about them IF they are cashing regularly and final tabling/winning consistently.They have constant non stop decisions to make throughout a tournament and as you say 1 false move OR bad read and you are history.