As almost exclusively a tournament player, I am fortunate to be able to show a healthy profit over the last few years both live and online.
But cash is where the real money is, and I wish I could get to grips with it. But I have never been able to play consistently well even at the lower limits.
I love watching the top guys play cash though, some of the reads they make are almost psychic, and I will be following the show tonight, hoping to learn something.
And I think you are right, James, the cash players seem able to play tournaments well, but it does not always work the other way.
But I started playing because I love the game, and I still do, and I dont think that anything beats the buzz of a good final table.
Well, what you can say is a good cash player>a good tournament player, almost always- but it's a close one.
As a slightly wayward analogy, as a guitarist- when you're learning to play, an acoustic is tougher to play than an electric (bigger size, less effects to hide bad playing) but if you begin on acoustic, moving into electric is fairly simple- you take your same skillset and apply it to the electric with a few minor modifications. If you begin on electric, there are a lot of completely different techniques that you need to get your head round to play acoustic, since there's nowhere to hide your potential bad habits.
In essence, tournament and cash require different skillsets, but a cash skillset transfers into a tournament one much, much better than vice-versa. Tournaments can be very forgiving to a player with bad habits and weaknesses in their game, thanks to luck and variance in the short term. Cash doesn't have the same forgiveness.
To be truly successful at either though, you need to have strong game- but most with that level of game choose to play cash instead of tournaments for the lower variance.
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : lol, Tommy - you've answered your own question! Antonius cashed for more than $1m in that WPT event. He also won EPT Baden in Season 2 and the Scandinavian Poker Championships in 2005. Plus, he came third in the $10k PLO World Championship at the WSOP in 2007 and seventh in the $10k PLHE event in 2008. I define that as "some success." durrrr has played very few live tournaments compared to many of his contemporaries, but still has tournament winnings of nearly $1.6m - including $388,000 in that WSOP event. Posted by J-Hartigan
Antonius's most recent of your examples is just under five years ago and all three came within a few months each other. I maintain that his tourney record doesn't match up to a lot of high level tourney pros.
When you're a very successful cash player you are able to enter a ton of tourneys, sooner or later you'll run like a Darvin. The flaw in your argument is tourney players are only shown to be supposedly poor cash players under the spot-light of 'Big Games' such as 'High Stakes Poker,' up against the best cash players in the world. Just because they are losers in these games doesn't make them poor cash players. Yet when the top cash players have a tourney car crash they're allowed to say 'Lol Donkaments.'
There's too much disrespect towards tourney players (and I say this as a bona fide cash game player).
So, what's tonight's hot topic? Well, it's a subject that's been discussed many times in the poker community and seems to be a recurring debate on this forum... Who do we categorise people as "cash players" and "tournament players?" Posted by J-Hartigan
Did you mean "Why do we..."
Personaly I prefer to categorise players as good players (everyone else) and bad players (me).
TBH I felt very hard done by last week, James you seemed to isolate me as a slow roller Trevor you compared me to a footballer being racist! I DO NOT SLOW ROLL and to compare slow rolling to racism is just plain wrong – racism is illegal and has no place in the world today - slow rolling is using the time you are given in a game of poker, for god sake it’s like bad beats if you can’t take it don’t play poker! All I said was that some players use it as a tactic to gain an advantage for example Tony G and that if you get and edge then it’s worth it, in the modern game any edge is better than none isn’t it??? Next thing I know some plank called bandini is saying he will nut someone who slow rolls him, see you at a spt sometime bandini and I will use it to get you kicked out of the tournament and if you nut me it will hurt you more than me lol Rant over now the difference between a cash and tourney player, cash player's do generally sit with a deep stack in relation to the blinds, tourney players have to make those push or fold decisions much more often, position play is much more important in cash as well Posted by KKarlos93
Hi Kkarlos,
Just to reiterate I absolutely did not infer that you were a racist - happy to set the record straight.
I was simply making the point that to me slow rolling is unacceptable behaviour. If you feel it is fair tactic then obviously you can simply carry on doing it.
Hi James, Trev Wont be watching tonight, but, in my opinion anybody who slowrolls should be shot on sight, it aint good and it aint clever, very bad ettiquette. Posted by acebarry10
As should anyone who calls two all-ins with 2-2. Pffft. ;-)
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : As should anyone who calls two all-ins with 2-2. Pffft. ;-) Posted by bandini
+1 to Hartigan's comment for DTW Bandit to get rid of his pic - I h8 em and can't read your posts im afraid Michael - Just glad im not the only one lol!!
Just to be pedantic there are only 2 poisonous snakes in the entire world. This is just because poisonous refers to the effect they have when they are eaten. The adder/viper and all of the others are venomous and not poisonous.
Didn't mean to offend James & Dylan12 so i've uploaded another Picture which i'm sure you will find more easier on the eyes lol Michael Posted by DTWBANDIT
M8 you never offended me!! Just can't stand em lol Glad youve changed it tho - can't wait to see the new one
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : M8 you never offended me!! Just can't stand em lol Glad youve changed it tho - can't wait to see the new one Posted by dylan12
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : Hi Kkarlos, Just to reiterate I absolutely did not infer that you were a racist - happy to set the record straight. I was simply making the point that to me slow rolling is unacceptable behaviour. If you feel it is fair tactic then obviously you can simply carry on doing it. Posted by TrevorH
Hi Trevor I didnt say I was being accussed of being racist just that slow rolling had been compaired to a football player being racist, and that that comment was out of order, I have watched the repeated show a couple of times (in an attempt to see if i could have laid down those kings) and this is how it looks, dont worry about it anyway i dont expect to be playing on sky again, the last couple of weeks i have been running very poor on sky but good everywhere else, I might return to playing on sky if/when i can track my play accurately, i might stay active on the forum though
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : Hi Trevor I didnt say I was being accussed of being racist just that slow rolling had been compaired to a football player being racist, and that that comment was out of order, I have watched the repeated show a couple of times (in an attempt to see if i could have laid down those kings) and this is how it looks, dont worry about it anyway i dont expect to be playing on sky again, the last couple of weeks i have been running very poor on sky but good everywhere else, I might return to playing on sky if/when i can track my play accurately, i might stay active on the forum though Posted by KKarlos93
Hey Karlos
Just use a spreadsheet and make sure you record every penny you invest and every penny of return you make. If you're running bad and don't know if this is bad varience or a leak in your game there's a few things you can do. Once I thought I couldn't win a race AIPF no matter the cards. I recorded all such instances for the last 100 IAPF, looked at the percentage chances in the hand and found out I was actually running good.
Examining hand histories and recording all investments are vital IMO
In Response to Re: 'Tis a rather large and entertaining diversion (***OFFICIAL LIVE SHOW THREAD***) : Hey Tommy, massive respect to your game by the way, but i dont have too many leaks, i make good money on the big 2 sites playing a very similar way to i do on sky, i want to use a program such as pokertrace but i cannot as sky doesnt support them, its not the bad beats i am worried about its the nearly win hands where my oponent has a slightly better hand i dont mean the KK v AA of last week but set v over set, flush v better flush and even a flopped full house with JJ v 44 only for the turn - river to give the villan 4 of a kind I dont know what to make of it tbh but articles like this seem to make sense http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewcustom&friendId=246618806&blogId=534224442&swapped=true Posted by KKarlos93
I could copy and paste laods of hand historys from this month alone where ive been flush over flushed, set over set, one outered etc etc everyone runs bads, but heres the choice people make...
you run bad ----- />you work on fixing your leaks(unless youre playing the very top limits you have a ton of them). You adjust your game. You realise that if you keep getting your moeny in good you will win. Coolers happen,remember all the times you cooler other people. If you keep this mindset you are in a position to improve.
heres the other option most people take...
you run bad ------ /> you bemoan your luck, you dwell over every little hand which doesnt go your way, you think the reason you are losing is because of bad luck. You think youre playing perfectly. You run worse than anyone in the world. It cant be your own skills so there must be something shady going on. Rather than working on any part of your game you decide it must be rigged, becuase theres no other possible way you could be losing. You continue to lose because rather than thinking aobut how to improve you decide that its out of your control.
Comments
But cash is where the real money is, and I wish I could get to grips with it. But I have never been able to play consistently well even at the lower limits.
I love watching the top guys play cash though, some of the reads they make are almost psychic, and I will be following the show tonight, hoping to learn something.
And I think you are right, James, the cash players seem able to play tournaments well, but it does not always work the other way.
But I started playing because I love the game, and I still do, and I dont think that anything beats the buzz of a good final table.
As a slightly wayward analogy, as a guitarist- when you're learning to play, an acoustic is tougher to play than an electric (bigger size, less effects to hide bad playing) but if you begin on acoustic, moving into electric is fairly simple- you take your same skillset and apply it to the electric with a few minor modifications. If you begin on electric, there are a lot of completely different techniques that you need to get your head round to play acoustic, since there's nowhere to hide your potential bad habits.
In essence, tournament and cash require different skillsets, but a cash skillset transfers into a tournament one much, much better than vice-versa. Tournaments can be very forgiving to a player with bad habits and weaknesses in their game, thanks to luck and variance in the short term. Cash doesn't have the same forgiveness.
To be truly successful at either though, you need to have strong game- but most with that level of game choose to play cash instead of tournaments for the lower variance.
Personaly I prefer to categorise players as good players (everyone else) and bad players (me).
Hi Kkarlos,
Just to reiterate I absolutely did not infer that you were a racist - happy to set the record straight.
I was simply making the point that to me slow rolling is unacceptable behaviour. If you feel it is fair tactic then obviously you can simply carry on doing it.
Wont be watching tonight, but, in my opinion anybody who slowrolls should be shot on sight, it aint good and it aint clever, very bad ettiquette.
Am enjoying the show am learning loads
Sky poker player Ricorford & his song would be "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life"
for when he is having a bad day on the tables
Didn't mean to offend James & Dylan12 so i've uploaded another Picture which i'm sure you will find more easier on the eyes lol Michael
Glad youve changed it tho - can't wait to see the new one
No probs m8y should be up tomorrow lol
Should of gone to specsavers!!
Hey Karlos
Just use a spreadsheet and make sure you record every penny you invest and every penny of return you make. If you're running bad and don't know if this is bad varience or a leak in your game there's a few things you can do. Once I thought I couldn't win a race AIPF no matter the cards. I recorded all such instances for the last 100 IAPF, looked at the percentage chances in the hand and found out I was actually running good.
Examining hand histories and recording all investments are vital IMO
you run bad ----- />you work on fixing your leaks(unless youre playing the very top limits you have a ton of them). You adjust your game. You realise that if you keep getting your moeny in good you will win. Coolers happen,remember all the times you cooler other people. If you keep this mindset you are in a position to improve.
heres the other option most people take...
you run bad ------ /> you bemoan your luck, you dwell over every little hand which doesnt go your way, you think the reason you are losing is because of bad luck. You think youre playing perfectly. You run worse than anyone in the world. It cant be your own skills so there must be something shady going on. Rather than working on any part of your game you decide it must be rigged, becuase theres no other possible way you could be losing. You continue to lose because rather than thinking aobut how to improve you decide that its out of your control.