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Tough spot for queens?

DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
edited December 2010 in The Poker Clinic
25/50- a little above my normal limit, but seeing how I cope there. Nothing really out of line, people 3 bet a little lighter but 4 bets are pretty rare. What's your take on the play? 4 better hasn't been out of line at all, not been involved in a massive amount of hands- 3 better is a little looser on the trigger. Flatting's out of the question- so shove and pray or fold?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
xxxx Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £127.86
bandini Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £48.56
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
SoLack Fold        
DeucesLive Raise   £2.00 £2.75 £52.91
xxxx Call   £2.00 £4.75 £59.26
xxxx Raise   £7.00 £11.75 £48.48
xxxx Raise   £21.00 £32.75 £106.86
bandini Fold        
DeucesLive ????    
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Comments

  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited December 2010
    definate fold on sky at nl50 imo his sizing is so bad hes never bluffing and i alot of people will just 4bet shove AK here
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:
    definate fold on sky at nl50 imo his sizing is so bad hes never bluffing and i alot of people will just 4bet shove AK here
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    .....can u explain this for me plzzzzzzzzzz ?
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2010
    his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    his 4 bet is ruddy massive lol
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited December 2010

    I watched a hand a few weeks ago, it was blind on blind....

    AJS v LjamesL......

    No action, and it gets to AJS in't little blind....

    like 140ish BB deep

    Im pretty sure the last action, was James calling AJS's 6 bet shove - ????????????????

    They both had aces btw.

    What's that all about then? (the final shove was still a pretty big 1!!!!)
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2010
    In Response to ...:
    his 4 bet is ruddy massive lol
    Posted by beaneh
    its not massive in respect to what already in the pot and into 3 players
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  • christiannchristiann Member Posts: 468
    edited December 2010
    Standard 4 bet sizing surely, considering the pot?
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re:...:
    In Response to ... : its not massive in respect to what already in the pot and into 3 players
    Posted by N1CK

    it is. lol


    4bb

    4bb

    14bb


    42beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeb


    from 100. lots of room left to manouvre.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:
    I watched a hand a few weeks ago, it was blind on blind.... AJS v LjamesL...... No action, and it gets to AJS in't little blind.... like 140ish BB deep Im pretty sure the last action, was James calling AJS's 6 bet shove - ???????????????? They both had aces btw. What's that all about then? (the final shove was still a pretty big 1!!!!)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    what does this even mean?


    are you really asking how or why two players blind on blind with aces got it in with multiple raises??? .....
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited December 2010

    It was in response to the guy who suggested the raise in this hand was so small, that it just screamed strength. (Quote "his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER")

    In the hand above, with the big hitters, there were several raises that were just above min raises. I think it went, 4xbb, 11xbb, 24xbb, 48xbb, all in.

    So assuming Nick was right about the 4 bet being so obviously strong (I don't know either way myself) - then surely the sizing in the hand I described is absolutely terrible?

    But now it seems LOL_RAISE criticised the guys raise size because it was too big??? (quote - "his sizing is so bad")

    Maybe Lol_Raise will explain what he meant when he sees this, coz I'm confused.
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  • hurst05hurst05 Member Posts: 1,567
    edited December 2010
    cry and then fold. unless hes been making plays like that alot in which case i stick it in his eye. then cry when he turns over AA and you think to yourself (frickin card rack) 
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited December 2010
    yes his sizing is huge if a player shoves on him he will be getting almost 3:1 on his money which means he has to call with virtually every hand he has so he is almost never bluffing here.

    100bb deep i personally would never 4bet higher than like 26bbs, if villains 3bet sizing is huge making a small 4bet impossible id either flat the 3bet or 4bet shove.


    DOHHH its kinda like the hand you went on about, someone 5betting 48bbs preflop is just never a bluff unless you are like 250bb+ deep and have a huge 3bet/4bet dynamic going on.









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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:
    It was in response to the guy who suggested the raise in this hand was so small, that it just screamed strength. ( Quote " his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER ") In the hand above, with the big hitters, there were several raises that were just above min raises. I think it went, 4xbb, 11xbb, 24xbb, 48xbb, all in. So assuming Nick was right about the 4 bet being so obviously strong (I don't know either way myself) - then surely the sizing in the hand I described is absolutely terrible? But now it seems LOL_RAISE criticised the guys raise size because it was too big??? (quote - "his sizing is so bad" ) Maybe Lol_Raise will explain what he meant when he sees this, coz I'm confused.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    you didn't describe the sizing..


    I would say standard sizing normally would be roughly (100bbe) 3x-9x-21x (150bbe)3x-9x-21x-35x



    The pot above has a 4x and a flat before the squeeze comes in so a 4 bet against that is always going to look strong and going to be relatively large.


    4 betting in the above scenario to £15 has little difference to 4 betting to £21.

    The £21 is also pretty much never a bluff.
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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited December 2010
    ok, the 4bet:

    A pot bet would be 25.5 total, a raise of 18.5.  He has raised it to 21 with 14 on top of the previous bet.  In terms of BB it is a jump as Beaneh has said but as LOL has said he's bet less than the pot (around 4/5).  I wouldn't call it very small but hey.  Just depends how you look at the betting.

    In terms of the hand, discretion beats valour here, fold unless on a table of crazy people.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    loolraise we should discuss before we post the same nonsense at the same time lawl
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:
    ok, the 4bet: A pot bet would be 25.5 total, a raise of 18.5.  He has raised it to 21 with 14 on top of the previous bet.  In terms of BB it is a jump as Beaneh has said but as LOL has said he's bet less than the pot (around 4/5).  I wouldn't call it very small but hey.  Just depends how you look at the betting. In terms of the hand, discretion beats valour here, fold unless on a table of crazy people.
    Posted by TommyD


    his bet size in relation to what a pot raise would be isn't as important as the relative amount of stacks (nearly half) that are going in with the 4 bet.
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited December 2010
    Yea, cheers for the feedback guys- I knew in my heart it was the right fold, and that I was almost 100% behind to the 4 bet, but just wanted confirmation that it definitely is a +ev move to fold queens in a spot like that. I guess I was a little confused by the shove from the 3 bet guy after I folded, and his response of 'cold deck, what can you do'. To me it seemed a fairly straightforward fold in that spot.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    xxxx Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £127.86
    bandini Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £48.56
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
    		     
    SoLack Fold        
    DeucesLive Raise   £2.00 £2.75 £52.91
    TommyD Call   £2.00 £4.75 £59.26
    zzzz Raise   £7.00 £11.75 £48.48
    xxxx Raise   £21.00 £32.75 £106.86
    bandini Fold        
    DeucesLive Fold        
    TommyD Fold        
    zzzz Raise   £29.50 £62.25 £18.98
    xxxx All-in   £106.86 £169.11 £0.00
    zzzz All-in   £18.98 £188.09 £0.00
    xxxx Unmatched bet   £72.63 £115.46 £72.63
    xxxx Show
    • K
    • K
    		     
    zzzz Show
    • J
    • J
    		     
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • 3
    • K
    		     
    Turn
       
    • 10
    		     
    River
       
    • 2
    		     
    xxxx Win Three Kings £113.66   £186.29
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:


     but just wanted confirmation that it definitely is a +ev move to fold queens i
    Posted by DeucesLive
    im going to be a super nit picker and point out that folding as an expected value of 0. always.


    ps beaneh lrn 2 type faster
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  • sikassikas Member Posts: 857
    edited December 2010
    yeah defo fold, Villains Bet-sizing was fine imo
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  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:
    yeah defo fold, Villains Bet-sizing was fine imo
    Posted by sikas
    It's only 'fine' because he had a very strong hand, and to be honest the fact he made QQ fold preflop is pretty horrendous.

    If your 4bet sizing is always this huge with KK+, then you are never going to be able to mix in 4betting bluffs, or you will be forced to call it off everytime.
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