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I blame Beaneh for this fold

TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
edited February 2011 in The Poker Clinic
I know a lot of the focus will be on the 3bet with Nines but I'd particularly like to look at the fold to the jam.  He claimed to have exactly what I thought he had (AK).  The mouse hovered over call until the spirit of Beaneh whispered in my ear 'It's a cold 4bet, follllldddddddd.'

Original raiser - Very well known very good Reg, opening range is wide.
Original flatter - Very well known very good Reg, flatting range is pretty wide.
Hero - Donk
Shover - First time I've seen him at this level, haven't seen much play from him in this session.

Correct fold?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Stuporman Small blind  £1.00 £1.00 £77.70
xBig blind  £2.00 £3.00 £217.95
  Your hole cards
  • 9
  • 9
     
RUNITSRANN Fold     
yRaise  £8.00 £11.00 £406.92
zCall  £8.00 £19.00 £324.65
Hero Raise  £30.00 £49.00 £195.70
Stuporman Fold     
xAll-in  £217.95 £266.95 £0.00
yFold     
zFold     
Hero Fold     
xMuck     
xWin  £77.00  £77.00
xReturn  £189.95 £0.00 £266.95
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Comments

  • christiannchristiann Member Posts: 468
    edited February 2011
    I fold everytime, could easily have you crushed.
    Would you call if his cards were face up and he had AK? - not sure i wanna risk my whole stack on a flip.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2011
    I love the way you play this tommy. And good fold imo.

    Even if it is AT+ ur against are you really that happy to flip for £200 ? I know im low stake and £200 sounds like a **** of alot of money to me, so ill re-phrase that are you willing to flip for 100BB?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    I love the way you play this tommy. And good fold imo. Even if it is AT+ ur against are you really that happy to flip for £200 ? I know im low stake and £200 sounds like a **** of alot of money to me, so ill re-phrase that are you willing to flip for 100BB?
    Posted by The_Don90

    If the opponent exposes his hand and it's 2 overcards, he has to call, there's no doubt about it.

    195 more to win a pot of 250 on a 53/47 shot = snap call.

    Unfortunately his hand aint exposed, and he obv could have TT-AA, so for that reason I would fold.

    I would be over the moon to get it in racing here though, with all the dead money in the pot.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited February 2011
    What did I do?!!?
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    In Response to  Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold : If the opponent exposes his hand and it's 2 overcards, he has to call, there's no doubt about it. 195 more to win a pot of 250 on a 53/47 shot = snap call. Unfortunately his hand aint exposed, and he obv could have TT-AA, so for that reason I would fold. I would be over the moon to get it in racing here though, with all the dead money in the pot.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    really?

    maybe its just my mentality from playing too many mtts of late, but when im deep (100BB is obv deep to me) wouldnt flip to risk my tournament. So why is it different to want to flip in cash ?

    Now again maybe its just im scared to lose £200 on one hand. That would kill me and i would become a little girl and cry lol.

    But JJ are you really happy @ NL30 to sit down first hand and find yourself with QQ and you know your opponent has just jammed with AK?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold : really? maybe its just my mentality from playing too many mtts of late, but when im deep (100BB is obv deep to me) wouldnt flip to risk my tournament. So why is it different to want to flip in cash ? Now again maybe its just im scared to lose £200 on one hand. That would kill me and i would become a little girl and cry lol. But JJ are you really happy @ NL30 to sit down first hand and find yourself with QQ and you know your opponent has just jammed with AK?
    Posted by The_Don90
    It's a cash game, so we play the odds, and make +ev decisions.

    Maybe one of the maths guys can explain why taking a 50/50 shot, when you're getting better than 50/50 on your money is a winning play over time.

    "Printing money" is the term for it I believe.

    It should be obvious why it's a good thing.

    If the odds on the roulette wheel landing on black paid 2/1, for an even money shot, I would sit at the roulette wheel and make money, risk free until I was a millionnaire.

    * at 30nl, if a guy open shoves utg and then exposes AK, and I'm on the button with queens - I will snap fold it.

    But thats different.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold : It's a cash game, so we play the odds, and make +ev decisions. Maybe one of the maths guys can explain why taking a 50/50 shot, when you're getting better than 50/50 on your money is a winning play over time. "Printing money" is the term for it I believe. It should be obvious why it's a good thing. If the odds on the roulette wheel landing on black paid 2/1, for an even money shot, I would sit at the roulette wheel and make money, risk free until I was a millionnaire. * at 30nl, if a guy open shoves utg and then exposes AK, and I'm on the button with queens - I will snap fold it. But thats different.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    dont you counter act yourself with this statement.

    Also isnt a flip 51/49 ?
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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    What did I do?!!?
    Posted by beaneh
    LOL, just goes back to a post in the clinic ages ago.  We had a discussion as to how wide a cold 4bet's range could be.  You had it a lot more narrow than I did and as you can see by my fold I've apparently become convinced by you.  Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing....

    I posted this as the 'original flatter' claimed it was a snap call.  I'm trying to work out if I've lost my gamble or I'm becoming smarter..
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited February 2011
    It's pretty obvious, if your opponent has overcards and you have a pair, and there's already good money in the pot (8.5bbs from other players, and 15 you've put in yourself) that if you then have a flip, it's a good spot to be in every time. Especially as a pair is actually a slight favourite anyway.

    Cash is different from tournaments in that cash is solely about the hand in question every time. Blinds don't go up, and if you bust you can reload. Tournaments are different because you have survival to concern yourself with- if you go bust that's it (apart from rebuys... lol). In that scenario, I don't want to get involved in flips in early stages if possible, and I prefer to avoid them throughout- but when you do get forced into one, you try and get in there first at least.

    Flips are a big part of cash games, and they're gonna happen all the time- as dohhh said, it's a good spot to be in when there's dead money involved.

    I still fold this though, TT/JJ I'd be wary of and probably fold too. QQ I think I'm getting it in, there's a chance that shove could be JJ/TT, and obviously AK- odds start to stack in your favour at that point I think.
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited February 2011
    insta fold with no reads on villain, you need a bit of history to even think about it, cold 4 betting is the new craze tho
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited February 2011
    Sorry to be a bit dumb, but what is cold betting?
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited February 2011
    if you 3 bet in this spot you should know what you will be doing to further action, i would make it smaller like £22ish, personally i would just call with that hand if the blinds like to squeeze i would lean towards the 3bet
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  • BrownnDogBrownnDog Member Posts: 729
    edited February 2011
    Given your reads on the OR and OF the BTN 3B with 99 is fine. Readless snap fold to the cold 4. And actually most regs at this level dont have super wide cold 4'ing ranges, as some would lead you to believe. Although I would actually make this call vs a certain few bad regs because of something they do which is pretty LOL.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    I I posted this as the 'original flatter' claimed it was a snap call.  I'm trying to work out if I've lost my gamble or I'm becoming smarter..
    Posted by TommyD

    i would question your reads on the original flatter
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited February 2011
    I blame it on the boogie!
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited February 2011
    I don't get how you can say to yourself: 'I think he has AK'??
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited February 2011
    I iz famous biatches.


    send me a hundo to thank me for saving your maneys.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: I blame Beaneh for this fold:
    I iz famous biatches. send me a hundo to thank me for saving your maneys.
    Posted by beaneh
    Chances are you lost him monies if the dude had what he said he had. Silly bean :)
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited February 2011
    who is BB
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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited February 2011
    Thanks for the responses guys.

    In answer to the discussion between Christiann, Don, JJ and Dueces, if the cards were exposed as AK I snap call.  With the money in the middle it's so +ev.  Concentrating on a comment Deuces made, I disagree that flipping preflop is a large part of cash poker.  Flipping on a flop with made hand v combo draw I agree with in cash, getting 100+BB in MTT style with 77 v AJ preflop is not, IMO, a big part of cash poker.  Yes some flips pre you can't avoid but I'm much more of a through the streets kind of player.  Maybe a leak, maybe not.

    Young Gun - To do something 'cold' (either cold Xbetting or cold calling) is to do it as your first action in a round of betting.  As the shover had not acted yet in the round his was a 'cold 4bet.'  If he was OR it would just be a 4Bet.

    LolRaise - I forgot to make clear that was my reads on the OF before the hand.  I changed the notes a little after.  I haven't played too much with him as I'm relatively new to NL200 & nl300 but he's always seemed to have a stack of cash in font of him when I see him on the tables.

    Will answer the rest in a bit, especially BlackFish, got a long reply in me there...
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