Well if you're looking to please the majoriy, charge £57.50 on £50 dyms, and £1.10 on £1 dyms.
Im sure more £1 games run than £50 games.
Theres probably only a pool of 30 regs max at the higher end of the dym scale, and hundreds of £1 and lower regs.
So is it really a case of trying to please the majority??
Or is it simply exploitation of the naivety of beginners, and poor players? - who will eventually come through and pay my wages. My motives for questioning the policy are obv entirely selfish
Tempted to conclude this post by using the old "sky poker is doing alot of things right bla bla" - but there's no reason why they can't do everything right?
Man City will finish 4th this season, and it will be considered that they've done well. But having spent hundreds of millions, shouldn't they be doing even better???????
This subject seems always to take on a personal slant. Can Tikay comment without restriction ? - of course he can't, give the guy a break he works for the company. He can point out the facts true enough but that's probably as far as he can go without quickly updating and circulating his CV.
It's very simple, any company will charge the maximum they can realistically achieve from their customers. Fairness doen't come into it - it's not a charity. Good business is fully utilising capacity, minimising costs and maximising return. Sky are doing nothing different, so if you want the price to go down stop using the product - simples. We are all ''ripped off'' every day by scores of big companies who have made it an art form, at least with the rake it's there for all to see and choose to play or not.
While there are sufficient players paying the price it will not change.
Another point is the forward vision of the company. Is it to become the next stars? - I doubt it. Lots of very profitable companies exist in niche markets and they do that by exploiting their uniqueness to the full. Sky's has access to it's own TV station and the face to face and personal approach of the presenters. Maybe the forward vision is to have a relatively small poker site which attracts the cream of players playing high value, high quality poker that's good for TV.
You can join them, it will just cost you a little more in rake to do so at the lower levels.
Well if you're looking to please the majoriy, charge £57.50 on £50 dyms, and £1.10 on £1 dyms. Im sure more £1 games run than £50 games. Theres probably only a pool of 30 regs max at the higher end of the dym scale, and hundreds of £1 and lower regs. So is it really a case of trying to please the majority?? Or is it simply exploitation of the naivety of beginners, and poor players? - who will eventually come through and pay my wages. My motives for questioning the policy are obv entirely selfish Tempted to conclude this post by using the old "sky poker is doing alot of things right bla bla" - but there's no reason why they can't do everything right? Man City will finish 4th this season, and it will be considered that they've done well. But having spent hundreds of millions, shouldn't they be doing even better??????? Sky poker can do a lot lot lot better. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Oh baby baby baby, yes yes yes. Sky Poker MUST & NEED to keep getting better, a LOT LOT better. All that is true, & I hope they or I have never denied that
It's also true that it IS getting better, bit by bit, week by week. Not fast enough better, we are all impatient souls, but nobody can deny it is improving.
Each time there is what is known as a "Scheduled Maintenance Outage", the sarcastic comments soon follow. But what do you think "Scheduled Maintenance Outage" really means? It means they are adding a bell or whistle, adding bits & pieces, tinkering with it to improve it. How frequent have those irritating Scheduled Site Maintenance Outages occurred recently? Weekly, more sometimes. Every time it happens, it's another little improvement being tested or implemented.
We don't need to have opinions on this - the facts tell the story. Online Poker, industry-wide, is in decline. Sky Poker's uniques* & MPU** are continuing to show huge year on year increases. This allows the Promotional spend to rise in line with the increased activity. It's why they are offering better Freerolls, better SPT, better structures, better TSP, better VLV, better Total Player, better 865 Guests, better Promotions, da de da.
* "Uniques" is a standard online industry term for the number of different individuals who visit the site each day.
** "MPU" is a standard Online Industry term for Margin per Unique. Margin is the amount of fees generated by each player.
If "uniques" & "MPU" are both heading north, the business is perfoming it's function. And it cannot do that unless the majority of it's customers are pleased with the Site, & it is adding - NET adding - new customers all the time. It is.
Low-Level DYM Reg Fees. Traffic at the lower limit DYM's is up year-on-year in line with the rest of the business. So why would the business reduce the fee? How much extra traffic would it need to generate to justify the reduction in fees?
If the reg fee on these were to be, say, halved, do you really think the effect would be to double the amount of them played? Because it would need to do that to justify it.
It is hard to say this without it coming across wrong, but the fact is, it's a business.
"....is it simply exploitation of the naivety of beginners, and poor players?....."
I'm note sure what that has to do with the price of eggs. It's nothing to do with "poor players", "naivety", or "exploitation". A product is offered at a certain price, with an added reg fee. That Reg Fee is CLEARLY shown.
To enter one, you....
Select it in the Lobby, where it says, say £0.60. Alongside, to the right, it says "Buy-In, £0.50 + £0.10". Now you have to CLICK that bit.
Click "Register" & it says "Buy-In + Fee = £0.50 + £0.10". Now you have to CLICK again.
Is it being suggested people cannot read that? They choose to buy the product. They do not have to - one must assume they choose to. Or not. It's their choice. Nobody makes them CLICK. But they do, in ever increasing numbers,
Do we care about "lower buy-in players"?. **** yes - read this Forum, or my PM's, FB Messages, TSP, (which ANY LEVEL PLAYER can get in to) - or watch Poker Clinic, Poker School, etc. I doubt (opinion, not fact) that ANY Online Site has a bigger % of "smaller buy-in" players than Sky Poker. Name me a Site where the "regular" nightly Main Event is as small as £22 or £33. Do 'Stars do "Poker School" & "Poker Clinic", or even have a Community? (Rh).
Finally, yes, I may, or may not, get in trouble upstairs, but if so, so be it, what is there to hide? All of the above (except where stated) is factual.
Another point is the forward vision of the company. Is it to become the next stars? - I doubt it. Lots of very profitable companies exist in niche markets and they do that by exploiting their uniqueness to the full. Sky's has access to it's own TV station and the face to face and personal approach of the presenters. Maybe the forward vision is to have a relatively small poker site which attracts the cream of players playing high value, high quality poker that's good for TV. You can join them, it will just cost you a little more in rake to do so at the lower levels. Posted by elsadog
Yes, a tall order to become "the next 'Stars", but then again, Sky Poker insist upon operating strictly within the law, & only in the domains it is licensed to, so that makes it a bit awkward, as they will not operate outside of their License juristiction.
I happen to be a tremendous admirer of that Company, & their approach to Excellence, so yes, I'd love to be as big as them, but it ain't gonna happen, so we need to be successful in other ways. "Believe in Better" says the little Trophy on my Desk, awarded to me by Head Office, because that's the Company Motto - Believe in better.
The 2nd part of your Post I have enboldened is not right, really, but does hint at the business model. The clue to that is at the top of this & every single page on any "Sky Betting & Gaming" site - those "insta-links" to other parts of the Site - Vegas, Bingo, Bet. The abilty to move around the different arms of the site easily & quickly, using a "Common Wallet", meaning cross-migration & cross-sell is easy-peasy, is the key. And that cuts both ways, it works for the Customers, & it works for the business.
It is a very complex business, & poker is like a gear cog within the whole thing. It serves other gear cogs, & they serve us, too. None of it works unless all of it works. The convo has now come a long way from the 10p Reg Fee on a 60p DYM, do you not think?
Funny, or not, how the rake, registration fee, charging model pops up every fortnight or so.
If you were to walk into a supermarket and they charged one price for butter and one price for margarine then the buyer has the choice to purchase or not. If people don't buy at the current price then the pricing model gets adjusted. I can only assume enough players are happy with the current Sky Poker pricing model that they keep paying the price and playing.
In Response to Re: sky poker fees : Yes, a tall order to become "the next 'Stars", but then again, Sky Poker insist upon operating strictly within the law, & only in the domains it is licensed to, so that makes it a bit awkward, as they will not operate outside of their License juristiction. I happen to be a tremendous admirer of that Company, & their approach to Excellence, so yes, I'd love to be as big as them, but it ain't gonna happen, so we need to be successful in other ways. "Believe in Better" says the little Trophy on my Desk, awarded to me by Head Office, because that's the Company Motto - Believe in better. The 2nd part of your Post I have enboldened is not right, really, but does hint at the business model. The clue to that is at the top of this & every single page on any "Sky Betting & Gaming" site - those "insta-links" to other parts of the Site - Vegas, Bingo, Bet. The abilty to move around the different arms of the site easily & quickly, using a "Common Wallet", meaning cross-migration & cross-sell is easy-peasy, is the key. And that cuts both ways, it works for the Customers, & it works for the business. It is a very complex business, & poker is like a gear cog within the whole thing. It serves other gear cogs, & they serve us, too. None of it works unless all of it works. The convo has now come a long way from the 10p Reg Fee on a 60p DYM, do you not think? Posted by Tikay10
This was always going to happen.
Sky could cap their rake at 1.81 in cash games, and not 1 player would leave the site because of this - No1 would even notice.
It would increase profits massively.
If £5.50 dyms became £5.55 dyms - would less games run? I don't think so.
Sowhy micro games?
Is it something to do with the actual cost of sky setting up and running a game? - Does it cost money for sky to run a sit and go? like it costs them 54p to run a sit n go, so they have to charge 10p rake on the 50p games to cover costs? Thus making 4p profit per game?
I am clueless with technology, but that's the only semi -reasonable justification.
In Response to Re: sky poker fees : Yes, a tall order to become "the next 'Stars", but then again, Sky Poker insist upon operating strictly within the law, & only in the domains it is licensed to, so that makes it a bit awkward, as they will not operate outside of their License juristiction. I happen to be a tremendous admirer of that Company, & their approach to Excellence, so yes, I'd love to be as big as them, but it ain't gonna happen, so we need to be successful in other ways. "Believe in Better" says the little Trophy on my Desk, awarded to me by Head Office, because that's the Company Motto - Believe in better. The 2nd part of your Post I have enboldened is not right, really, but does hint at the business model. The clue to that is at the top of this & every single page on any "Sky Betting & Gaming" site - those "insta-links" to other parts of the Site - Vegas, Bingo, Bet. The abilty to move around the different arms of the site easily & quickly, using a "Common Wallet", meaning cross-migration & cross-sell is easy-peasy, is the key. And that cuts both ways, it works for the Customers, & it works for the business. It is a very complex business, & poker is like a gear cog within the whole thing. It serves other gear cogs, & they serve us, too. None of it works unless all of it works. The convo has now come a long way from the 10p Reg Fee on a 60p DYM, do you not think? Posted by Tikay10
I never thought it would be - just a bit of fun to get the bigger picture across.
Guys, quite frankly, the debate is boring. Moaning is not getting anyone anywhere it just blocks the forum up with drivel. The price is the price, take it or leave it is my stance. If you feel that strongly vote with your feet! Posted by Small_Dog
The title of the thread gives you a clue about the content within it.
Funny, or not, how the rake, registration fee, charging model pops up every fortnight or so. If you were to walk into a supermarket and they charged one price for butter and one price for margarine then the buyer has the choice to purchase or not. If people don't buy at the current price then the pricing model gets adjusted. I can only assume enough players are happy with the current Sky Poker pricing model that they keep paying the price and playing. I can't believe it's not better. Posted by Machka
Supermarkets always come up in this rake discussion lol .
The customer / punter is king not the company / supermarket . Without the key customer one aint got nowt .
Now if enough customers complain they will be listened to . The bottom line in this is skypoker will charge 20% rake if they can get away with it .
But skypoker cant then go on to say they are being fair to all .
In Response to Re: sky poker fees : This was always going to happen. Sky could cap their rake at 1.81 in cash games, and not 1 player would leave the site because of this - No1 would even notice. It would increase profits massively. If £5.50 dyms became £5.55 dyms - would less games run? I don't think so. So why micro games? Is it something to do with the actual cost of sky setting up and running a game? - Does it cost money for sky to run a sit and go? like it costs them 54p to run a sit n go, so they have to 10p rake on the 50p games to cover costs? I am clueless with technology, but that's the only semi -reasonable justification. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
In a way, yes, it costs something to run every game. But not a direct cost, except for server costs etc, but the development costs of the Site, & all the support costs - staff, equipment, promotions, office costs, rent, overheads, etc, all these are charged to the Poker Site, & broken down, a fixed amount of "margin" needs to be recovered daily to pay those costs. (These are called "Prime Costs" & "Overheads"). And hopefully leave a bit behind for profit.
So they take the sum needed to "pay the rent", & then try to best apportion it across all aspects of the business, or site.
In doing so (I'm surmising here, as I don't know as a fact) I imagine they use the same pricing model that is used for almost every consumer product on the planet. That is, buy it in bigger packets, & the unit cost is less, buy it in smaller packets, & the unit price is higher. Think, if it helps, of the cost of beer, or ciggies, or tins of custard, or packs of potatoes.
It would need an awful lot of 60p DYM's to pay much of that Prime Cost.
Answer me a question now, please (I've answered all yours!) - IF they reduced 60p DYM's to 55p, (& so the Reg fee to 5p instead of 10p) how many EXTRA 55p DYM's would be needed for the business to "stand still".
Extend that one step further. If they reduced them to 51p - (50p + 1p Reg Fee) - how many more would be needed to "stand still" now?
Now turn it upside down. Increase the fee to £0.70. (50p + 20p). Number played would plummet, probably by more than half. Thus is would NOT be cost-effective.
And there's the skill - in getting the balance right.
The daily figures suggest they have. And let us be absolutely clear - Customers have a huge choice, there are so many Online Poker Sites these days.
I wish we lived in a world where everything was free, or we could all afford whatever we wanted. But we don't, & it affects every one of us. We need to judge for ourselves what we are, or are not, prepared to buy stuff for, & sell stuff for.
There's been alot of "other stuff" on this thread, which is interesting, but unless I am being really thick, and have missed something - I still havent had an answer to the initial question............
In 1 sentance, beginning with the word "because"......Can you try to answer the following......
Why is the rake charged on micro stakes double your moneys higher than the rake charged on mid/high stakes double your moneys?
Supply & demand, & free market forces, suggest that, on balance, it's about right, judging by the volume played.
* In truth, I don't know that as a fact. But I'd be prepared to wager a lot of money that it is.
It is a judgement call, so it might be right, & it might be wrong, & it may be a bit of both. The litmus test is whether more, or less, people play more, or less, of them. At the moment, the volume of them has increased in line with the overall uptick in Sky Poker traffic. Which suggests the Customers, broadly, must think they are fine, or at least the majority do. They are almost never "promoted" on the various platforms, yet the volume played keeps increasing.
OK, I have tried to be wholly honest in answering every question, but I need to draw a line somewhere.
It's my PTP tonight, starting at 7pm, so I need to get some kip before that, I've been here since 7am.
I'll be playing 4 Tournies at £2.20, £5.50, £11, & £22, 6 seaters & 10 seaters, 2,500 chips, 4,000 chips, & 5,000 chips, so I hope I'll see a few of you later.
I don't believe the %age rake should be any different at different stakes. 10% rake on all dym games, they are what they are, no complaints from anyone, they will still run and be very popular.
Sky have invented rakeism
Hopefully someone in the office will realise it's wrong, and change it sometimes soon, but I doubt it.
The rake on rebuys on tournaments is completely different, it's fine imo for sky to charge rake on rebuys, it's 10% rake on each rebuy at every level, take it or leave it.
Comments
It's also true that it IS getting better, bit by bit, week by week. Not fast enough better, we are all impatient souls, but nobody can deny it is improving.
Each time there is what is known as a "Scheduled Maintenance Outage", the sarcastic comments soon follow. But what do you think "Scheduled Maintenance Outage" really means? It means they are adding a bell or whistle, adding bits & pieces, tinkering with it to improve it. How frequent have those irritating Scheduled Site Maintenance Outages occurred recently? Weekly, more sometimes. Every time it happens, it's another little improvement being tested or implemented.
We don't need to have opinions on this - the facts tell the story. Online Poker, industry-wide, is in decline. Sky Poker's uniques* & MPU** are continuing to show huge year on year increases. This allows the Promotional spend to rise in line with the increased activity. It's why they are offering better Freerolls, better SPT, better structures, better TSP, better VLV, better Total Player, better 865 Guests, better Promotions, da de da.
* "Uniques" is a standard online industry term for the number of different individuals who visit the site each day.
** "MPU" is a standard Online Industry term for Margin per Unique. Margin is the amount of fees generated by each player.
If "uniques" & "MPU" are both heading north, the business is perfoming it's function. And it cannot do that unless the majority of it's customers are pleased with the Site, & it is adding - NET adding - new customers all the time. It is.
Low-Level DYM Reg Fees. Traffic at the lower limit DYM's is up year-on-year in line with the rest of the business. So why would the business reduce the fee? How much extra traffic would it need to generate to justify the reduction in fees?
If the reg fee on these were to be, say, halved, do you really think the effect would be to double the amount of them played? Because it would need to do that to justify it.
It is hard to say this without it coming across wrong, but the fact is, it's a business.
"....is it simply exploitation of the naivety of beginners, and poor players?....."
I'm note sure what that has to do with the price of eggs. It's nothing to do with "poor players", "naivety", or "exploitation". A product is offered at a certain price, with an added reg fee. That Reg Fee is CLEARLY shown.
To enter one, you....
Select it in the Lobby, where it says, say £0.60. Alongside, to the right, it says "Buy-In, £0.50 + £0.10". Now you have to CLICK that bit.
Click "Register" & it says "Buy-In + Fee = £0.50 + £0.10". Now you have to CLICK again.
Is it being suggested people cannot read that? They choose to buy the product. They do not have to - one must assume they choose to. Or not. It's their choice. Nobody makes them CLICK. But they do, in ever increasing numbers,
Do we care about "lower buy-in players"?. **** yes - read this Forum, or my PM's, FB Messages, TSP, (which ANY LEVEL PLAYER can get in to) - or watch Poker Clinic, Poker School, etc. I doubt (opinion, not fact) that ANY Online Site has a bigger % of "smaller buy-in" players than Sky Poker. Name me a Site where the "regular" nightly Main Event is as small as £22 or £33. Do 'Stars do "Poker School" & "Poker Clinic", or even have a Community? (Rh).
Finally, yes, I may, or may not, get in trouble upstairs, but if so, so be it, what is there to hide? All of the above (except where stated) is factual.
I happen to be a tremendous admirer of that Company, & their approach to Excellence, so yes, I'd love to be as big as them, but it ain't gonna happen, so we need to be successful in other ways. "Believe in Better" says the little Trophy on my Desk, awarded to me by Head Office, because that's the Company Motto - Believe in better.
The 2nd part of your Post I have enboldened is not right, really, but does hint at the business model. The clue to that is at the top of this & every single page on any "Sky Betting & Gaming" site - those "insta-links" to other parts of the Site - Vegas, Bingo, Bet. The abilty to move around the different arms of the site easily & quickly, using a "Common Wallet", meaning cross-migration & cross-sell is easy-peasy, is the key. And that cuts both ways, it works for the Customers, & it works for the business.
It is a very complex business, & poker is like a gear cog within the whole thing. It serves other gear cogs, & they serve us, too. None of it works unless all of it works. The convo has now come a long way from the 10p Reg Fee on a 60p DYM, do you not think?
If you were to walk into a supermarket and they charged one price for butter and one price for margarine then the buyer has the choice to purchase or not. If people don't buy at the current price then the pricing model gets adjusted. I can only assume enough players are happy with the current Sky Poker pricing model that they keep paying the price and playing.
I can't believe it's not better.
Guys, quite frankly, the debate is boring.
Moaning is not getting anyone anywhere it just blocks the forum up with drivel.
The price is the price, take it or leave it is my stance.
If you feel that strongly vote with your feet!
Lol @ "I can't believe it's not better"!
The customer / punter is king not the company / supermarket .
Without the key customer one aint got nowt .
Now if enough customers complain they will be listened to .
The bottom line in this is skypoker will charge 20% rake
if they can get away with it .
But skypoker cant then go on to say they are being fair to all .
So they take the sum needed to "pay the rent", & then try to best apportion it across all aspects of the business, or site.
In doing so (I'm surmising here, as I don't know as a fact) I imagine they use the same pricing model that is used for almost every consumer product on the planet. That is, buy it in bigger packets, & the unit cost is less, buy it in smaller packets, & the unit price is higher. Think, if it helps, of the cost of beer, or ciggies, or tins of custard, or packs of potatoes.
It would need an awful lot of 60p DYM's to pay much of that Prime Cost.
Answer me a question now, please (I've answered all yours!) - IF they reduced 60p DYM's to 55p, (& so the Reg fee to 5p instead of 10p) how many EXTRA 55p DYM's would be needed for the business to "stand still".
Extend that one step further. If they reduced them to 51p - (50p + 1p Reg Fee) - how many more would be needed to "stand still" now?
Now turn it upside down. Increase the fee to £0.70. (50p + 20p). Number played would plummet, probably by more than half. Thus is would NOT be cost-effective.
And there's the skill - in getting the balance right.
The daily figures suggest they have. And let us be absolutely clear - Customers have a huge choice, there are so many Online Poker Sites these days.
I wish we lived in a world where everything was free, or we could all afford whatever we wanted. But we don't, & it affects every one of us. We need to judge for ourselves what we are, or are not, prepared to buy stuff for, & sell stuff for.
Because.......*
Supply & demand, & free market forces, suggest that, on balance, it's about right, judging by the volume played.
* In truth, I don't know that as a fact. But I'd be prepared to wager a lot of money that it is.
It is a judgement call, so it might be right, & it might be wrong, & it may be a bit of both. The litmus test is whether more, or less, people play more, or less, of them. At the moment, the volume of them has increased in line with the overall uptick in Sky Poker traffic. Which suggests the Customers, broadly, must think they are fine, or at least the majority do. They are almost never "promoted" on the various platforms, yet the volume played keeps increasing.
OK, I have tried to be wholly honest in answering every question, but I need to draw a line somewhere.
It's my PTP tonight, starting at 7pm, so I need to get some kip before that, I've been here since 7am.
I'll be playing 4 Tournies at £2.20, £5.50, £11, & £22, 6 seaters & 10 seaters, 2,500 chips, 4,000 chips, & 5,000 chips, so I hope I'll see a few of you later.