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Turning KK into a bluff

offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
edited April 2011 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
sam1986 Small blind   £1.00 £1.00 £231.55
offshoot Big blind   £2.00 £3.00 £198.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
LOL_RAISE Fold        
andyAA Fold        
jimmynoleg Fold        
RUNITSRANN Raise   £6.00 £9.00 £205.35
sam1986 Fold        
offshoot Call   £4.00 £13.00 £194.00
Flop
   
  • A
  • J
  • 4
     
offshoot Check        
RUNITSRANN Check        
Turn
   
  • 5
     
offshoot Bet   £9.75 £22.75 £184.25
RUNITSRANN Call   £9.75 £32.50 £195.60
River
   
  • A
     
offshoot Bet   £20.00 £52.50 £164.25
RUNITSRANN Raise   £62.00 £114.50 £133.60
offshoot All-in?        
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Comments

  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited April 2011
    is this dumb? What hands does RUNN show up with here? Is he raise folding the river or am i giving him too much credit thinking he'll fold to me here?
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    why are you flatting pre?

    Its pretty villain dependent, you can rep a boat here, is he capable of folding Ax? Can he be bluffing river?
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited April 2011
    way higher level than I'm used to...

    based on what I've heard about RANN, he sounds like a solid ABC player, unlikely to make too many moves, and very unlikely to stack off light. I think he's capable of folding weak aces here, but this hand is confusing as anything... nothing seems to make much sense.

    Checking back the flop after raising preflop is a curious move, and suggests he's huge here- but surely if he was, he'd be looking to get more in on the turn? Maybe he really has gone that far to slowplay you. A5 is a possibility- he made a standard button raise, got called, and now doesn't like his kicker all that much and is waiting for info.

    I dunno, I'm really confused. I think raising is a massively risky move here, because if he does have you beat (with any ace) it'll take an extremely good fold from him, and he's not calling with anything else. £42 into £114... your kings may still be good here? might be worth a call rather than a raise.

    This is why (apart from BR) I stay well clear of high stakes.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited April 2011
    i dont understand why u flat here offy? was it misclick

    surely he's not folding there and doubt he's ever doing that with air or anything that u beat
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    You know he has A2, A3, A6, A7 or A8.

    I guess you've posted this for someone who knows RUNN to tell you if they think he will fold those hands or not?

    .......................


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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    Thinking about this more I doubt he has a big A or he bets flop, and I wouldnt think he raises a weak A on river unless there is history between you. It looks like a hand he'll get it in with or a bluff, I prob call. If he does raise A rag on river though he prob will fold to a shove
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    give us some reads/history
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited April 2011
    runitsrann is capable of raise/folding Ax imo, and the only boats he really shows up with is 55/A5.

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    runitsrann is capable of raise/folding Ax imo, and the only boats he really shows up with is 55/A5.
    Posted by yb
    Surely he raises the turn with these hands 100% of the time?
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited April 2011
    i dont think he ever raises Ax on the river
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    i dont think he ever raises Ax on the river
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    yeah this is the only point in the hand that bothers me when he raises the river, the way the hand played out surely this can only be a value raise with boat, so by turning KK into a bluff he needs to be tuning ax into a bluff? which would make the play good
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2011
    Whats he checking the flop, calling the turn and raising the river with that you can beat QQ, or can't beat Ax or set improved to a FH

    I think your dead, or he has a J or something like QQ and does not beleive you have an ace which you don't so the play/read is defo on for him as you checked the flop. So he could be playing back at you :!:!:! Especially with your weak flat pre, no raise ?

    Call seems apt, think a shove is not winning in this spot enough to make it worthwhile
    How many times are you going to get him to fold Ax or be beating his calling range
    If you shove he is only calling you with a hand thats beating you the majority of the time ...... unless you think he will think your bluffing .... too much meta game for this shove )

    So he is either making the same play your contemplating or he has you beat
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    Whats he checking the flop, calling the turn and raising the river with that you can beat QQ, or can't beat Ax or set improved to a FH I think your dead, or he has a J or something like QQ and does not beleive you have an ace which you don't so the play/read is defo on for him as you checked the flop. So he could be playing back at you :!:!:! Especially with your weak flat pre, no raise ? Call seems apt, think a shove is not winning in this spot enough to make it worthwhile How many times are you going to get him to fold Ax or be beating his calling range If you shove he is only calling you with a hand thats beating you the majority of the time ...... unless you think he will think your bluffing .... too much meta game for this shove )
    Posted by rancid
    he can flat/3bet monsters pre, 3 bet ax, pretty standard chk/chk on the flop with pre/f action imo, the villian can chk back flop and rep ace later/ vbet
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff : he can flat/3bet monsters pre, 3 bet ax, pretty standard chk/chk on the flop with pre/f action imo, the villian can chk back flop and rep ace later/ vbet
    Posted by N1CK
    Yeah it's defo an intresting hand but the flat pre defines the action post flop, so he kinda put himself in this spot where he contemplating turning KK into a bluff )
    All about what RUNN is thinking, is he thinking Offshoot will flat with a big hand pre against him or not.

    A lot of players would just call here and loose min.





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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    is this dumb? What hands does RUNN show up with here? Is he raise folding the river or am i giving him too much credit thinking he'll fold to me here?
    Posted by offshoot
    what range does he expect you to show up with when you flat pre?
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff : Yeah it's defo an intresting hand but the flat pre defines the action post flop, so he kinda put himself in this spot where he contemplating turning KK into a bluff ) All about what RUNN is thinking, is he thinking Offshoot will flat with a big hand pre against him or not. A lot of players would just call here and loose min.
    Posted by rancid
    yeah agree but if offshoot call river and the guys turns over Ax it sucks, kk could be good but if he can get worse and ax to fold obviously better
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff : yeah agree but if offshoot call river and the guys turns over Ax it sucks, kk could be good but if he can get worse and ax to fold obviously better
    Posted by N1CK
    Maybe he will turn over QQ or a Jack and he wins pot )
    Maybe LOL_RAISE got it spot on by saying he would not raise with Ax on the end, it's either bluff or he has Offshoot beat and is not folding :)
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff : Maybe he will turn over QQ or a Jack and he wins pot ) Maybe LOL_RAISE got it spot on by saying he would not raise with Ax on the end, it's either bluff or he has Offshoot beat and is not folding :)
    Posted by rancid
    yeah  this makes sense
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff : yeah  this makes sense
    Posted by N1CK

    Closer to a fold then a bluff, pf is very good with reads imo.
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  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Turning KK into a bluff:
    why are you flatting pre? Its pretty villain dependent, you can rep a boat here, is he capable of folding Ax? Can he be bluffing river?
    Posted by grantorino
    hes not bluffing. If he has Ax then it would be pretty bad to call a shove as im rarely bluffing, not out of the question though.

    Thinking about it, when he checked back flop and called turn i obviously assume hes pot controlling pp's or Ax/Jx. When he raises river i can rule out pp's so its more likely Ax. At the time i thought he could feel like hes underrepped his hand here and so would raise for value but fold to shove. thinking more about it im not sure he raises the river with Ax.
     
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