Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.

AMYBR

7 handed NLHE 50p/£1.

Pretty loose table, bought in for £100 had A's cracked early and I'm down to about £62.  Not tilted, just waiting for a spot to get my money in and double up or rebuy.

Actions folded to button who makes it £2.5, I make a pretty spewy call in the SB with Ks4s, BB calls behind me.  Both sat around 250-300BB's deep, to my 60ish

£7.50 in pot, flop comes out 5s6s10h.

Personally I dont especially like leading out with a draw 3 handed sat shallow as it limits your options if you get raised (allin/fold).  I prefer to check, maybe taking the free card, check calling or check raising allin if i sense weakness.

I check, TAG checks donut bets £3, I call expecting to go to the turn HU OOP.  TAG player check raise to £15, donut calls without even thinking.  I can only go allin or fold with £57 behind and £40 in the pot.  TAG player definately knows this.

I take my time, trying to work out if this is a good enough spot and run the numbers.  TAG looks at me and says "What have you got..32...35%?"  He knows my game pretty well, and I respect his. 

I just decide he's not betting 1pr, in all likelyhood he's flopped his set or has maybe Axs, making any percentage I give myself pretty dumb.  I end up deciding there are weaker players to pick up pots from and fold.

Turn comes 5s6s10h Ac.

Tag checks, donkey bets £32, TAG makes it around £75, donkey insta mucks.  I know TAG does not have an A, check raising there then hitting the A just doesnt sit right, not even A10, as he'd have 3bet the LP raiser Pre.

Tried my best to get the hand out of him but he wouldnt budge.  Totally got the sense that he hoped donkey hit the A.  What would your instincts put him on?

N1CK

if you call with that garbage and flop that 3handed then erm.....check call shove no brainer

AMYBR

Normally I'd agree but I have a golden rule that if a solid opponent calls your range within the hand you should run for the hills.  He not asking "have you got", he's really saying "I hope you've got".

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Normally I'd agree but I have a golden rule that if a solid opponent calls your range within the hand you should run for the hills.  He not asking "have you got", he's really saying "I hope you've got".
Posted by AMYBR

what did you call pf for then? what was your plan? what was you hoping would happen? just get it in

AMYBR

TBH was just hoping to go to the flop against the donkey, K4 likely being the best hand, if not pretty confident I can take the pot by the turn.

Again TAG player is very very good.  We tend not to collide too much, as honestly speaking we are the better two players at that table.  He knows I have a hand, yet he still check raises two players, then calls out my odds.  He wanted action.  I think I can shave down my outs CONSIDORABLY at this point.  I'm not just doing my stack despite all signs pointing in the wrong direction.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

TBH was just hoping to go to the flop against the donkey, K4 likely being the best hand, if not pretty confident I can take the pot by the turn. Again TAG player is very very good.  We tend not to collide too much, as honestly speaking we are the better two players at that table.  He knows I have a hand, yet he still check raises two players, then calls out my odds.  He wanted action.  I think I can shave down my outs CONSIDORABLY at this point.  I'm not just doing my stack despite all signs pointing in the wrong direction.
Posted by AMYBR

well if hes good and knows your game he might want you to fold and get hu vs donk so his hand might not be that great, why would he tell you he has a set if he think you will fold? i think shoving could be ok

AMYBR

In the end I think I put him on Asxs.

It did occur to me the goal was to isolate against the donkey, however he knows his bet sizing only leaves me jam or fold.  Plus he knows hs hand has to be strong enough to showdown vs donkey as he was a calling station also.

Just taking everything into account there were easier, better spots.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

In the end I think I put him on Asxs. It did occur to me the goal was to isolate against the donkey, however he knows his bet sizing only leaves me jam or fold.  Plus he knows hs hand has to be strong enough to showdown vs donkey as he was a calling station also. Just taking everything into account there were easier, better spots.
Posted by AMYBR

there are always better spots than k4soot

grantorino

buy in to cover the donkey

your call pre is really bad 60bb deep imo, especially as tag will call with any 2 getting like 4/1 deep with the fish. i prob just c/r on flop, as played idk I prob gamble and shove having got there this way

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

buy in to cover the donkey your call pre is really bad 60bb deep imo, especially as tag will call with any 2 getting like 4/1 deep with the fish. i prob just c/r on flop, as played idk I prob gamble and shove having got there this way
Posted by grantorino

i thought about c/r flop but would it be better to call and try to keep TAG in to get better odds?

grantorino

not sure nick, if I play this way pre though its cos Im in the mood to gamble it up so when I flop like this I'm looking to stick it in 

AMYBR

TAG wont pay if spade falls, he already knows I'm holding two spades.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

TAG wont pay if spade falls, he already knows I'm holding two spades.
Posted by AMYBR

yeah agree the implied odds arnt great vs him but it gives him the option to call and sweeten the price or to sense weakness and gives him another option

AMYBR

Also my read was that he held the superior spade draw, so If the spade does fall, I'm drawing dead and am going to have to come up with a fold, which I no isnt likely to happen, hence the fold on the flop.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Also my read was that he held the superior spade draw, so If the spade does fall, I'm drawing dead and am going to have to come up with a fold, which I no isnt likely to happen, hence the fold on the flop.
Posted by AMYBR

i dont know how you can put him on one hand, he can have 78 89 79 spades here

AMYBR

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.
Posted by AMYBR

well how does he play sets, 2pair, weaker fds, straight draws the hands n1ck mentioned?

Also, and Im not having a go at you, if you are going to post hands where you stick villain on one particular hand and are utterly convinced of that read you dont need our advice on how to play it.  Hands that are so heavily read based just dont transfer well to a forum

I have no idea why you are so convinced of this read, esp since you didnt seem so sure in your first post. Its an unusual dynamic with stacksizes, personally I wouldnt be so sure he raises the fish with a bare draw this deep if he is good, especially given the direct and implied odds he has, and I certainly dont see why you think its the only hand he plays this way

N1CK

In Response to Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

7 handed NLHE 50p/£1. Pretty loose table, bought in for £100 had A's cracked early and I'm down to about £62.  Not tilted, just waiting for a spot to get my money in and double up or rebuy. Actions folded to button who makes it £2.5, I make a pretty spewy call in the SB with Ks4s, BB calls behind me.  Both sat around 250-300BB's deep, to my 60ish £7.50 in pot, flop comes out 5 s6s10h . Personally I dont especially like leading out with a draw 3 handed sat shallow as it limits your options if you get raised (allin/fold).  I prefer to check, maybe taking the free card, check calling or check raising allin if i sense weakness. I check, TAG checks donut bets £3, I call expecting to go to the turn HU OOP.  TAG player check raise to £15, donut calls without even thinking.  I can only go allin or fold with £57 behind and £40 in the pot.  TAG player definately knows this. I take my time, trying to work out if this is a good enough spot and run the numbers.  TAG looks at me and says " What have you got..32...35%?"  He knows my game pretty well, and I respect his.  I just decide he's not betting 1pr, in all likelyhood he's flopped his set or has maybe Axs, making any percentage I give myself pretty dumb.  I end up deciding there are weaker players to pick up pots from and fold. Turn comes 5s6s10h Ac . Tag checks, donkey bets £32, TAG makes it around £75, donkey insta mucks.  I know TAG does not have an A, check raising there then hitting the A just doesnt sit right, not even A10, as he'd have 3bet the LP raiser Pre. Tried my best to get the hand out of him but he wouldnt budge.  Totally got the sense that he hoped donkey hit the A.  What would your instincts put him on?
Posted by AMYBR

has he got the ace or not?????????????????????

N1CK

i dont know this villian but surly he has a set/tons of draws/pair+draw/ not just one hand

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.
Posted by AMYBR

im not being rude but this arrogant attitude is why you suck so much ;-)

AMYBR

Again, your making huge assumptions based on nothing.  I never asked for an evaluation of how I'd played, if i should have jammed, lead out or folded.  I asked for opinions on TAGs holdings.

You say your not being rude but your clearly are.  You have this superiority issue, maybe it makes you feel good to be critical and rude, who knows.  ANY poker player knows that any given hand is accompanied by huge amounts of player context and reads, stating your POV dogmatically, then just plain being rude about another player that you know very little about really is just bad form

What you percieve as arrogance is me just stating a simple fact.  If you were familier with a player that i wasnt, I'd pretty much take it for granted that you had more in depth knowledge on his game than I did.