In Response to Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow. : has he got the ace or not????????????????????? Posted by N1CK
I'm unsure, either low set or Asxs. He either didnt need the A, wasnt scared of it or made a Asxs hand. Hence the thread. Was curious as to popinions on Tags holdings, given action. Not my play.
Again, your making huge assumptions based on nothing. I never asked for an evaluation of how I'd played, if i should have jammed, lead out or folded. I asked for opinions on TAGs holdings. You say your not being rude but your clearly are. You have this superiority issue, maybe it makes you feel good to be critical and rude, who knows. ANY poker player knows that any given hand is accompanied by huge amounts of player context and reads, stating your POV dogmatically, then just plain being rude about another player that you know very little about really is just bad form What you percieve as arrogance is me just stating a simple fact. If you were familier with a player that i wasnt, I'd pretty much take it for granted that you had more in depth knowledge on his game than I did. Posted by AMYBR
i gave them to you, you start his range pf then try and narrow it down street by street looking at how it plays, but i stopped at flop because by some divine intervention you could be 100% sure he had Ax and nothing else
what concerns me the most about this hand is why are you calling a button raise by a fish with k4 oop with a good player left to act?
Not 100% sure, just worried enough not to put my money in there. If he'd kept his mouth shut i'd have put myself on 9 flush cards and 3 overs to the board, jammed regardless.
But he saw me doing the math. He knows my game I know his. Just speaking from my own experiemce, that type of table talk normally only comes when an opponent percieves themselves as being so far ahead they subtly goad their opponent. He felt very comfortable calling my outs, WHICH PROBABLY MEANT THEY WERE NULL AND VOID. If he puts me on 2 spades that he doesnt want to draw against, that player will keep his mouth shut. If he has two spades that he himself wants to draw to, as in your 67/78 comment he likely just flats. He certainly does not call my outs comfortably in the hand. He likely only calls them if he is not concerned by them. So I was veering from Asxs or set. So just not a great spot to put my stack in I thought.
I'm fully open to being wrong. There is a chance he was simply isolating as you mention earlier, as he knows I dont flat with a strong or weak hand ( I raise the weak hand for info, raise the strong hand for value). he knows this. So just wanted perceptions on his likely holdings given seen action on that board.
he felt comfortable calling your outs cos you spent ages dwelling up and counting them. Who does that with a set and <60BB behind with 40 already in. I really dont know why he cant have loads of other hands than nfd and sets. Whats he doing with 2pair? Tsxs?
i wouldn't go for two chk/r with set 5/6 i would hate to give free cards that beat me, and a check raise on the turn with a weak ace suited or not dont seem great either if he hopes the fish has an ace too....dunno maybe he did have 78 spades
2 pr did occur to me. I didnt sit there for ages doing the math. As I'm sure you guys do, I know them instinctively. You guys play live alot or just online?
Often your brain knows pretty much where you are, it just takes awhile for your mind to accept it and move forward. This was one of those times.
Perhaps I did overanalyse, but I trust my instincts. If he had check raised and not said a word I play my odds/implied odds and jam regardless of outcome. It was the speech that threw me i guess.
He knew I wasnt considoring calling, only shipping or folding. The speech just made him seem so eager for the action. The guy rarely speaks in a hand.
I guess As10s would have been a nice hand there though. This guy doesnt give much away, the fact his speech was calm and out of character was the issue.
Bit more to the story, I asked for a river rabbit hunt and it came a Q, I asked him if it would have been good. He goes down the "I dont remember" route. Were not friends, but we often grab a drink afterwards discussing some of the action. To my mind he's the best player there, to his mind I am, so it makes for interesting analysis.
He often says I give him too much credit, but I dont believe him But your right i guess Nick, a raise there with 7/8s is a must.
Just to ask, you must realise I'm not a poker idiot. I dont play well online for a variety of reasons. But you must realise that my understanding and knowledge are pretty broad?? Or do you actually think i'm just a clueless numpty? I have to ask Keep it friendly.
Bit more to the story, I asked for a river rabbit hunt and it came a Q, I asked him if it would have been good. He goes down the "I dont remember" route. Were not friends, but we often grab a drink afterwards discussing some of the action. To my mind he's the best player there, to his mind I am, so it makes for interesting analysis. He often says I give him too much credit, but I dont believe him But your right i guess Nick, a raise there with 7/8s is a must. Just to ask, you must realise I'm not a poker idiot. I dont play well online for a variety of reasons. But you must realise that my understanding and knowledge are pretty broad?? Or do you actually think i'm just a clueless numpty? I have to ask Keep it friendly. Posted by AMYBR
you seem to focus to much on the psychological side rather than the optimal.....i think you need to find some balance
i started off in live poker mtts and occasional cash game then played a bit online and realised how terrible i was...im getting better lol
In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow. : you seem to focus to much on the psychological side rather than the optimal.....i think you need to find some balance i started off in live poker mtts and occasional cash game then played a bit online and realised how terrible i was...im getting better lol Posted by N1CK
Hate to admit it but your very right. But many of the people I play with play VERY badly, limp calling 6 bigs with J5s oop and such. So i've had to focus on this aspect to combat it. Plus others crazy silly bet sizing.
Just wanted to expand upon this last comment. I play in many FO and cash games where people just play recreationally, and are happy to get alot of money in pre flop with really fiddly hands. Meaning I have to sit there like a nit till I pick up a hand with real strength. Mostly their average salary is 4x the highest mine ever was while I was working so psychology plays a real important part. I'm not happy to put my chips in ahead and flip 65/35 all night long. There isnt any point as patience pays off against many of these guys. So I cant just play EV+ spots all night. (Although I did do this at a lower buy in a week or so ago and ended up with around 15x my buyin). But how often are you going to run that good?
Just wanted to expand upon this last comment. I play in many FO and cash games where people just play recreationally, and are happy to get alot of money in pre flop with really fiddly hands. Meaning I have to sit there like a nit till I pick up a hand with real strength. Mostly their average salary is 4x the highest mine ever was while I was working so psychology plays a real important part. I'm not happy to put my chips in ahead and flip 65/35 all night long. There isnt any point as patience pays off against many of these guys. So I cant just play EV+ spots all night. (Although I did do this at a lower buy in a week or so ago and ended up with around 15x my buyin). But how often are you going to run that good? Posted by AMYBR
wat this surely is pretty badly unless you are underrolled for the games you play in
No i mostly buy in for the max. If I can take the flip against one player then yeah, happy days. But it rarely is. Your likely flipping for big portions of your stack multi way vs non dominated insane hands. Its just not a profitable scenario to keep going up against. I dont like the swings. I'd rather have some insurance. Good example being a hand I posted awhile ago here.
I limp with AhKh to 3 bet an idiot who is raising every hand. He makes a huge bet, fellow idiot BB calls I jam for something like 350BB's knowing one of them will call off their stack, maybe 120bb just to get lucky. initial raiser insta cals 120BBs, BB puts his head in his hands says that he has odds, calls off his 120BB's. Raiser flips 82, BB 75o. I won, putting a third of my stack at risk (A8210A) but its just not how I like to play poker. I can imagine your reply, that surely its great to play such idiots, and it is when you build a stack before your 3rd buy in. But its pretty high risk if you cant connect.
when the day comes that i finally leave my house and go outside, after i recover form being blinded by the sun im going to go and find a game that plays like the one you describe and never leave!
when the day comes that i finally leave my house and go outside, after i recover form being blinded by the sun im going to go and find a game that plays like the one you describe and never leave! Posted by LOL_RAISE
Yeah its great when it runs like it should, but it rarely does. You cant seriously tell me you'd be happy playing AKQ all in pre against random non dominated hands all day?
But against two non dominated hands for never less than 80-150BB's you dont really have an advantage, the odds are split reasonably evently 3way. If I could guarentee the race would be HU thats different, but as above there are guys that will shovel 120bigs in with 75o even after two massive allins.
Genuine question, in a 3 or even 4 way showdown pre, for 100's of BB's being a £200 buy in, where's your advantage? Especially when there are such easier spots?
Hand 0: 39.184% 39.06% 00.12% 137077092 425924.00 { AKs, AKo } Hand 1: 32.219% 32.10% 00.12% 112636332 425924.00 { QJs } Hand 2: 28.596% 28.47% 00.12% 99921828 425924.00 { 65s } i put 100bb in, i get 117bbs back on avg. pretty good edge imo Posted by LOL_RAISE
I never said I'd fold premium hands to them. I'm still limp 3 betting AK/Q (maybe J) and 8's upwards allin, or 3/4 betting allin in LP with the same hands against the idiots.
I'm just saying i dont desire to play this way. I'd rather exercise some pot control and avoid the swings, as you are always going to pick up a caller.
Comments
I'm unsure, either low set or Asxs. He either didnt need the A, wasnt scared of it or made a Asxs hand. Hence the thread. Was curious as to popinions on Tags holdings, given action. Not my play.
what concerns me the most about this hand is why are you calling a button raise by a fish with k4 oop with a good player left to act?
But he saw me doing the math. He knows my game I know his. Just speaking from my own experiemce, that type of table talk normally only comes when an opponent percieves themselves as being so far ahead they subtly goad their opponent. He felt very comfortable calling my outs, WHICH PROBABLY MEANT THEY WERE NULL AND VOID. If he puts me on 2 spades that he doesnt want to draw against, that player will keep his mouth shut. If he has two spades that he himself wants to draw to, as in your 67/78 comment he likely just flats. He certainly does not call my outs comfortably in the hand. He likely only calls them if he is not concerned by them. So I was veering from Asxs or set. So just not a great spot to put my stack in I thought.
I'm fully open to being wrong. There is a chance he was simply isolating as you mention earlier, as he knows I dont flat with a strong or weak hand ( I raise the weak hand for info, raise the strong hand for value). he knows this. So just wanted perceptions on his likely holdings given seen action on that board.
Often your brain knows pretty much where you are, it just takes awhile for your mind to accept it and move forward. This was one of those times.
Perhaps I did overanalyse, but I trust my instincts. If he had check raised and not said a word I play my odds/implied odds and jam regardless of outcome. It was the speech that threw me i guess.
He knew I wasnt considoring calling, only shipping or folding. The speech just made him seem so eager for the action. The guy rarely speaks in a hand.
I guess As10s would have been a nice hand there though. This guy doesnt give much away, the fact his speech was calm and out of character was the issue.
He often says I give him too much credit, but I dont believe him
Just to ask, you must realise I'm not a poker idiot. I dont play well online for a variety of reasons. But you must realise that my understanding and knowledge are pretty broad?? Or do you actually think i'm just a clueless numpty? I have to ask
you seem to focus to much on the psychological side rather than the optimal.....i think you need to find some balance
i started off in live poker mtts and occasional cash game then played a bit online and realised how terrible i was...im getting better lol
I limp with AhKh to 3 bet an idiot who is raising every hand. He makes a huge bet, fellow idiot BB calls I jam for something like 350BB's knowing one of them will call off their stack, maybe 120bb just to get lucky. initial raiser insta cals 120BBs, BB puts his head in his hands says that he has odds, calls off his 120BB's. Raiser flips 82, BB 75o. I won, putting a third of my stack at risk (A8210A) but its just not how I like to play poker. I can imagine your reply, that surely its great to play such idiots, and it is when you build a stack before your 3rd buy in. But its pretty high risk if you cant connect.
Genuine question, in a 3 or even 4 way showdown pre, for 100's of BB's being a £200 buy in, where's your advantage? Especially when there are such easier spots?
Hand 1: 32.219% 32.10% 00.12% 112636332 425924.00 { QJs }
Hand 2: 28.596% 28.47% 00.12% 99921828 425924.00 { 65s }
i put 100bb in, i get 117bbs back on avg.
pretty good edge imo
I never said I'd fold premium hands to them. I'm still limp 3 betting AK/Q (maybe J) and 8's upwards allin, or 3/4 betting allin in LP with the same hands against the idiots.
I'm just saying i dont desire to play this way. I'd rather exercise some pot control and avoid the swings, as you are always going to pick up a caller.