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JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack

2

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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2011
    Well I ended up flatting mainly due to feeling dirty folding Jacks pre and got this 'lovely' flop and bet.
    Dudeskin8 Small blind   15.00 15.00 4445.00
    weemallet Big blind   30.00 45.00 5460.00
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • J
         
    X Raise   420.00 465.00 4940.00
    FULLDECK Fold        
    NFFC23 Fold        
    TopMan12 Fold        
    Dudeskin8 Call   405.00 870.00 4040.00
    weemallet Fold        
    Flop
       
    • 9
    • 3
    • A
         
    Dudeskin8 Check        
    X Bet   870.00 1740.00 4070.00
    Dudeskin8
  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:


    The Ace scares ME now. I'm def folding. He's prob got set?
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011
    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuk

    Check, sigh, fold.

    cost u 400 to potentially win 5k on a low board, they do exist.

    ul
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    call, what part of his range do you expect to check there?
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2011
    haha u check he bets pot

    if your going to flat pre there you need to lead the flop whatever comes
  • IRISHROVERIRISHROVER Member Posts: 7,606
    edited May 2011


     it was a easy fold ,
    to early to deep ,

    your game needs to tighten up a little dude ,
    i have watched you in ds games ,
    your a good player .
    but can go better .

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011
    You don't need to lead flop.

    If you c/f the flop you played it fine.

    you've "gambled" 500, assuming that you get his stack (or at least a pot sized bet) on a  flop that's J high or lower.

    It's about 45% to have a flop with no A K or Q.

    500 to win 5k at just above even money, say 13/8..... (or even 500 to win 1k if he only fires 1 street)

    It's a good bet!!!!

    dw about it, check/fold hope u find a better spot before someone else does.

    No point having a deep stack if you aren't gonna use it!

    ;)
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    Doh, how do you reckon we win 5K when the flop is lower than Jxx. You think we cant get it in pre, but yet this guy is auto going to spew away  140BB with a pair of tens or worse? Doesnt make sense to me
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011
    He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history.

    The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop.

    We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit?

    Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.


  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:
    Doh, how do you reckon we win 5K when the flop is lower than Jxx. You think we cant get it in pre, but yet this guy is auto going to spew away  140BB with a pair of tens or worse? Doesnt make sense to me
    Posted by grantorino
    im still scratching my head at the 500 to win 5k statement
  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:
    He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history. The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop. We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit? Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
     what history? the guy 3bet twice
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:
    He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history. The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop. We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit? Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    1 If the pot size bet is expected why do you want to fold?
    2. How do you know we are ahead when the flop is low
    3. What if the turn is an overcard and he keeps firing
    4. Again, what in his history makes you think he spews postflop? We are spewing if we flat pre to fold over 50% to a 100%cbet
    5. Are you really comfortable calling off 140BB postflop with JJ on any low flop with the limited reads we have
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011

    1) - Coz we aren't gonna be happy to get it in on 43% of turns. We would have been happy to get it in on 43% of flops.

    2) I wouldn't know I was ahead, but I'd be much happier getting it in on  T high (or lower) flop than I would pre flop.

    3) Chances of an overcard on the turn r really low, and we wont have to sweat a river as we can c/r all in on the turn given stack sizes and his bet sizing. If an overcard comes it sucks, but what can ya do? Bad cards are gonna come no matter how you play it.

    4) Well what else am I supposed tot hink given the history? He's a maniac, there's loads on sky like this.

    5) Yes, absolutely delighted to get it in. - I reckon he had 77, a red un and a blue en.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011

    1. I dont get this

    2. The same hands we are behind pre we are still behind and they are never folding. Ok we are better off against AQ,AK,KQ but there are few hands that improve enough to stack off that wouldnt stack off pre that we are still ahead of

    3. Fair enough although call/call/call would prob be a better line imo if he is such a maniac. Also why are we ok with an overcard on turn but not on flop?

    4+5. He has shown hes aggro and likely a bit of a maniac. He hasnt done anything we know is really bad though. This still doesnt mean he goes broke with worse than JJ postflop. Imo there are lots of hands we beat he is far more likely  to get it in pre with than postflop.

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011
    ACE - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,Q,K all beat us now.

    Theres millions of those kinda hands.

    My point is I don't mind flatting pre because I'm gonna continue on the flop 43% of the time.

    I don't like flatting the flop because I'm gonna have to fold the turn 95.6% of the time, and it's now got to the stage where it's going to severely hurt my stack, if not end my tournament.

    I've plenty left, I gambled on a low flop. If it comes I get better than even money on my initial pre flop call, almost 2/1 in fact when he bangs pot.

    If he had QQ/KK/AA all along, it's a cooler against this kinda player.
  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:
    ACE - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,Q,K all beat us now. Theres millions of those kinda hands. My point is I don't mind flatting pre because I'm gonna continue on the flop 43% of the time. I don't like flatting the flop because I'm gonna have to fold the turn 95.6% of the time, and it's now got to the stage where it's going to severely hurt my stack, if not end my tournament. I've plenty left, I gambled on a low flop. If it comes I get better than even money on my initial pre flop call, almost 2/1 in fact when he bangs pot. If he had QQ/KK/AA all along, it's a cooler against this kinda player.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    i still dont know how you can state this
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011

    Just look at the size of his open....

    He's obviously clueless. I've played here for quite a while now and it's easy to catagorize players, especially in tournaments.

    Like a guy I've never heard of buys into my cash game at 30nl with £12 and posts his bb oop UTG.

    I've made notes and assumptions about his game straight away. They're nortmally right.

    Similar thing here.

    Once he opens that size pre flop, he's a plonker, added to the other history of him being v aggressive, I've got enough info to assume he's just a spa/zz who's gonna spew off left right and centre.

    I'd probably have skoped him before this hand too if it was a decent sized tourny for me.
  • stuart376stuart376 Member Posts: 13
    edited May 2011

    Folding Jacks here to an agressive guy 6 handed preflop that has raised 14x wouldnt even cross my mind.

    3betting to about 1400 and hoping he shoves with worse is the best play imo. i dont think many would flat a 3bet 1/4 of their stack. if he does and its an awful flop for JJ i think you can get away easy enough. just make some notes and move on.

    dont mind a shove here either although 3betting i believe to be the better play.

  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:
    Just look at the size of his open.... He's obviously clueless. I've played here for quite a while now and it's easy to catagorize players, especially in tournaments. Like a guy I've never heard of buys into my cash game at 30nl with £12 and posts his bb oop UTG. I've made notes and assumptions about his game straight away. They're nortmally right. Similar thing here. Once he opens that size pre flop, he's a plonker, added to the other history of him being v aggressive, I've got enough info to assume he's just a spa/zz who's gonna spew off left right and centre. I'd probably have skoped him before this hand too if it was a decent sized tourny for me.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    in the early stages of these sky mtts when all the soft money is still around i dont think its that bad of an idea to make ridic huge opens with monster hands even more so when better players are more than happy to stack off pre  here with one pair of jacks
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011

    He's much more likely to be trying to win a 5 hour deepstack in 20 minutes in my experience - trying to win every pot.

    Again this is where skope stats would come in.

    I'm happy to check fold this flop with 4.5k chips left at 15/30. A mere flesh wound !
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