Was a bit tilted when I wrote that so sorry if It came across critical. This pot does boil down to one simple thing for me. Opponent lets you off very cheaply at turn and river. You clearly have the best hand I assume when river goes check check. Say opponent does make huge value bets on turn river, if you feel you have got lucky and gone behind, your calling one more large bullet at turn, very least. SO YOU HAVE TO 3BET FLOP, the extra bet there gives you far more information going to the turn then being forced to call two extra streets at half+ pot sized bets. Plus If you havent gone behind you take back the control in the hand extracting value. All this talk of seeing people go broke with A's when sat 240BB deep. Its a 6 max cash game, HU to the flop! I disagree, Villain has to raise what he may perceive as your standard c-bet Holding QA QK KK, perhaps slightly weaker Q. He may be inflating pot with spades. His raise gains him the information that he needs going to the turn, otherwise he is left flatting three streets. Like I sad if you've got unlucky here, you go broke, reload. The defensive line with A's @ 6 max on that board is just kind of a waste. Posted by AMYBR
I'm not saying call a 5 bet all in on the flop. I'm saying you have to find out whats happening in the hand. I dont mind the flat on the flop If you intend to do something other than enter check call mode on turn/river.
Its just cheaper, if you have gone behind, to put the three bet in on the flop, than call two more streets at halfpot+. Which frankly your going to be. Also every street you call, your just getting more pot stuck if you are behind, maybe facing an ugly jam on the river.
If you've decided you need to get away from the hand, you need to decide on the flop.
You say you may fold if spade hits turn? Why let him see the turn at the price he sets you??
In Response to Re: AA Line Check: I'm not saying call a 5 bet all in on the flop. I'm saying you have to find out whats happening in the hand. I dont mind the flat on the flop If you intend to do something other than enter check call mode on turn/river . Its just cheaper, if you have gone behind, to put the three bet in on the flop, than call two more streets at halfpot+. Which frankly your going to be. Also every street you call, your just getting more pot stuck if you are behind, maybe facing an ugly jam on the river. If you've decided you need to get away from the hand, you need to decide on the flop. You say you may fold if spade hits turn? Why let him see the turn at the price he sets you?? Posted by AMYBR
Please explain if I 3bet (a) what you expect him to do (b) what I do if he calls/shoves
Its not so much about what you expect opponent to do, its what he actually does.
You say early in this thread that you considored folding the flop when he pushed back, instead you flat, proceeding to the turn, likely paying off two more bets. Say you do 3 bet cheaply flop, he 4 bet jams, flats or folds. The 4 bet gives you more info than you had. It more clearly defines his range. He flats, a worry also. This is problematic as value bets on further streets now become larger. Alternatively he folds. Your 3 bet signals the strength of your hand, as scary to him as his 4 bet potentially is to you. So yes, deny value on later streets. But as it stands, you do not know where you are.
This is not going to be the last bet in the hand. He now proceeds to pay you off with the worst hand, shuts down, or extracts value from you. But you have lost the momentum and ability to generate a much larger pot.
How do we lay down K's to A's, Q's to K's? We garner more information with each bet. You shut down all action here fearing the set, or that he improves to a flush, but you let him attempt to improve as cheaply as possible here.
I understand the pot control line, or bluff catch line. But it isnt the route I take. Thats my honest answer whether you think its right or wrong. I dont want to be left hoping he builds the pot for me, or being forced to pay off turn and river bets, or being forced to fold if Ilet the spade fall.
Its not so much about what you expect opponent to do, its what he actually does. You say early in this thread that you considored folding the flop when he pushed back, instead you flat, proceeding to the turn, likely paying off two more bets. Say you do 3 bet cheaply flop, he 4 bet jams, flats or folds. The 4 bet gives you more info than you had. It more clearly defines his range. He flats, a worry also. This is problematic as value bets on further streets now become larger. Alternatively he folds. Your 3 bet signals the strength of your hand, as scary to him as his 4 bet potentially is to you. So yes, deny value on later streets. But as it stands, you do not know where you are. This is not going to be the last bet in the hand. He now proceeds to pay you off with the worst hand, shuts down, or extracts value from you. But you have lost the momentum and ability to generate a much larger pot. How do we lay down K's to A's, Q's to K's? We garner more information with each bet. You shut down all action here fearing the set, or that he improves to a flush, but you let him attempt to improve as cheaply as possible here. I understand the pot control line, or bluff catch line. But it isnt the route I take. Thats my honest answer whether you think its right or wrong. I dont want to be left hoping he builds the pot for me, or being forced to pay off turn and river bets, or being forced to fold if Ilet the spade fall. Posted by AMYBR
lol at the bolded part.
its a bit much you telling me to 3bet then giving me no idea how to proceed if he calls/folds. You say I get more info, which is true to a certain extent, but how do you want me to use that info. Say his flop raising range is the following hands AQ, fds, sets, how do you think these react to a 3bet? ie what actual info does the 3bet give me?
Personally I think if I 3bet it has to be with a view to getting it in, but I doubt that is profitable against his range this deep (I at least understand the reasoning behind that line, and will explain why I doubt its profitable if you like)
I agree with amy here i would 3bet on the flop make it £12 if he flats then i am putting him on a flush draw, i don't think he would re-raise after a 3bet on a draw or 1 pair so if he re raises your 3bet then at least you have alot more information than just flat calling his raise IMO.
Comments
Its just cheaper, if you have gone behind, to put the three bet in on the flop, than call two more streets at halfpot+. Which frankly your going to be. Also every street you call, your just getting more pot stuck if you are behind, maybe facing an ugly jam on the river.
If you've decided you need to get away from the hand, you need to decide on the flop.
You say you may fold if spade hits turn? Why let him see the turn at the price he sets you??
getting it in on the flop w/o reads/history of him massively overplaying top pair is pretty spewy this deep.
I'm not saying call a 5 bet all in on the flop. I'm saying you have to find out whats happening in the hand. I dont mind the flat on the flop If you intend to do something other than enter check call mode on turn/river . Its just cheaper, if you have gone behind, to put the three bet in on the flop, than call two more streets at halfpot+. Which frankly your going to be. Also every street you call, your just getting more pot stuck if you are behind, maybe facing an ugly jam on the river. If you've decided you need to get away from the hand, you need to decide on the flop. You say you may fold if spade hits turn? Why let him see the turn at the price he sets you??
Posted by AMYBR
Please explain if I 3bet (a) what you expect him to do (b) what I do if he calls/shoves
You say early in this thread that you considored folding the flop when he pushed back, instead you flat, proceeding to the turn, likely paying off two more bets. Say you do 3 bet cheaply flop, he 4 bet jams, flats or folds. The 4 bet gives you more info than you had. It more clearly defines his range. He flats, a worry also. This is problematic as value bets on further streets now become larger. Alternatively he folds. Your 3 bet signals the strength of your hand, as scary to him as his 4 bet potentially is to you. So yes, deny value on later streets. But as it stands, you do not know where you are.
This is not going to be the last bet in the hand. He now proceeds to pay you off with the worst hand, shuts down, or extracts value from you. But you have lost the momentum and ability to generate a much larger pot.
How do we lay down K's to A's, Q's to K's? We garner more information with each bet. You shut down all action here fearing the set, or that he improves to a flush, but you let him attempt to improve as cheaply as possible here.
I understand the pot control line, or bluff catch line. But it isnt the route I take. Thats my honest answer whether you think its right or wrong. I dont want to be left hoping he builds the pot for me, or being forced to pay off turn and river bets, or being forced to fold if Ilet the spade fall.
its a bit much you telling me to 3bet then giving me no idea how to proceed if he calls/folds. You say I get more info, which is true to a certain extent, but how do you want me to use that info. Say his flop raising range is the following hands AQ, fds, sets, how do you think these react to a 3bet? ie what actual info does the 3bet give me?
Personally I think if I 3bet it has to be with a view to getting it in, but I doubt that is profitable against his range this deep (I at least understand the reasoning behind that line, and will explain why I doubt its profitable if you like)
know what you mean though, his river check is really weird, his small turn bet helped too:)
Yeah river check is very odd TBF lost the utter min, WP