I hoped people would disagree with bits of it, that's kinda how it's supposed to work.
I didn't proof read it, and there was much more I planned to write about but it was just getting too long. I'll add to the thread soon and was hoping others, especially nl4 regs would add to it too.
Having read it through since, there are bits I also feel are questionable,that "didn't come out right" and I've edited some of it. Should really have proof read it before posting it but didn't wanna time out, I know the forum does that sometimes.
Anyway I'm glad the feedback has been positive so far, thanx for all your comments.
One hand that I'm not too sure about is the QJ0 one, you call a 3x raise OOP, what would you say is the limit to this sort of play, what's the worst hands you will call raises with OOP and also does the raise size make a difference.
Excellent post dude. More than fit for a magazine.
Most altruistic of you to share it.
Question (for anyone) : At what level do you think it, in general, starts to become more like "proper poker"? Is it mostly a gradual process through the levels?
Other question (for anyone): Do you think it's better starting at NL4 regardless of BR? My latest drunken adventure took my BR up to £260 and I'm going to start taking cash seriously next week when my OU thing's done. I was thinking NL10 would be comfortable enough? Is there big differences between NL4 and NL10?
One hand that I'm not too sure about is the QJ0 one, you call a 3x raise OOP, what would you say is the limit to this sort of play, what's the worst hands you will call raises with OOP and also does the raise size make a difference. EDIT : 2nd bit irrelevent. Posted by Dudeskin8
Yeh definitely. I spose with the JQ hand if it was anymore than 3x I would have just folded.
There was a hand previous that I defended the bb with KJ suited and won a 75xbb stack from a guy happy to get it in on a J high flop with TJ.
I'm not really 100% sure about playing these kinda hands with reverse implied odds, TJ, TQ, TK, QJ, QK etc ............ I'd say if you're already quite confident/competent at nl4 level, then it's ok to use your experience/general poker sense to find good spots to play them, and avoid tricky spots to play them.........
Thinking again about stack size/opponent tendancies etc.....
But if you're just starting out and trying to grasp the basics you can just fold them no problem.
It cost me 13p to get from the flop to the river with 8 outs to the nuts, and then he paid me double the pot when I got there, so there are definitely ways to make playing these kind of hands profitable.
Just gotta be careful not to value town yourself and get attatched in marginal spots.
Excellent post dude. More than fit for a magazine. Most altruistic of you to share it. Question (for anyone) : At what level do you think it, in general, starts to become more like "proper poker"? Is it mostly a gradual process through the levels? Other question (for anyone): Do you think it's better starting at NL4 regardless of BR? My latest drunken adventure took my BR up to £260 and I'm going to start taking cash seriously next week when my OU thing's done. I was thinking NL10 would be comfortable enough? Is there big differences between NL4 and NL10? Posted by bandini
On sky I would say 20nl. The one level I haven't really played is 5/10p. I don't think I've ever played more than 4/5 mini sessions at that level in 18 months.....
What I will say though is once you start grinding at levels where it becomes more "poker-like" with meta-game, many tight players, nits, competent TAG's, you'll soon change your mind about preferring to play better players.
The hour I had last night at nl4 was really refreshing, getting paid off so easily every single time, I wish it was like that all the time!!
Also higher up you can look at table selection, but I don't think theres much point table selecting at nl4 as there aren't enough solid players to make it worthwhile. I would look at stack sizes though, preferably find 5 stacks of 50xbb+.
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Again I'm not sure about 10nl compared to 4nl. but I'd imagine the players are much tighter, so you can play more hands, and be abit more aggressive.
Theres still loads of value in the games, and your strategy should still be based around playing good hands strongly and betting big for value, but you need to be more weary of your bet/raise sizing and stuff as some regs will be watching and be starting to pick up reads/notes on you.
Wouldn't rule out nl8 either, nl10 is prob v v nitty/reggy through the day.
Essentailly raise big with good hands - ABC poker Don't bluff because they call - Always play for value and /or expected/implied value Also even at this level try not to play marginal hands OOP aggro, it's a headache
Top Tip: when you raise x5 BB with AA and get called in 3 spots - don't worry the guy with 84o will outdraw you and he will stack you - remember in the long run you will win that money back and a lot more if you keep playing correctly
Fantastic Fantastic Fantastic. This deserves entry to Primo for a whole month IMO. You should seriously consider boxing this and selling it! Posted by splashies
Thanx m8.
My sharkscope graph is nose-diving badly enough as it is!!!!
I agree dohhh deserves a lil something for this. (will send a lil trophy for him from all NL4 players over twitter later)
One thing dohhh is somesone said youve called a raise with QT or QJ, ive not read properly, but unless im opening the pot on one of the tighter NL4 tables then QT and QJ is now out of my range. call me nit picking if you will.
Just another question, you talk about having notes on some players that allow you to make quite wide calls. I'm starting to make rough notes on players mainly just to sort them into two groups - know how to play/ are awful fish, but do you have any specific details and on different players like certain hands or is that too much info to include ?
GREAT post! I'm now going to lock myself away in a room for 2/3 days with a large notepad, a six-pack, NO mobile/TV/pooter etc.and try and get it all into my tiny poker brain! lol.
I suppose that's one of the reasons we all enjoy (most of the time!) poker, you're learning something everyday?
Already told Dohhhh via pm, but this is a fantastic read- I was actually planning on putting together a similar document once I'd managed (hopefully, anyway) to double my roll and finish with NL4, and the notes I had in my head were almost word for word what he has here, only he's put it a lot clearer and more concisely. The only things I would perhaps disagree on are hand selection- I'd probably bet AJ+, KQ and TT+ as value hands, his opinion regarding low to midstrength pairs is absolutely spot on- either raise smaller or perhaps even open limp, these hands are ones that play better postflop multiway in low pots, you don't want to overinflate the pot with hands that miss the flop so often.
The only things I would add he was planning on adding anyway, but wanted to limit the size of the document somewhat, I didn't want to step on any toes but he said it was fine to post thoughts in here and welcomed the input. So, one of the things I think is most pertinent to NL4 above all other levels-
Stack Sizes and Player Type
At NL4, you can learn a huge amount about your opponent just by their stack size. Note- some of these apply only to what they buyin for, whereas others apply to what they have when you join them. Here's a list of the most common stack sizes I've noticed at NL4, how they play, and how best to combat them.
The Freeroller- 93p
How to spot them
This is a player who has most likely just cashed in a freeroll, and is looking to gamble a bit- spin up their little cash, or just have some fun with it.
Freerollers tend to buy in for some random amount, like £1.08. They will rarely ever be on more than one table, and fall into one of two categories- quietly blinding away by limp/folding, or shoving allin first opportunity. Don't confuse freerollers with a player who's sat already with a random amount- they could be a shortstacker, or someone that's just lost a big pot, or anything. Only classify someone here if you specifically see them buy in for a random sum.
How to combat them
Call with reasonably big hands, simple. Freerollers are one of the biggest problems in NL4, because they cause you all kinds of grief when you play too loosely against them. Don't make the mistake of forgetting there's other players at the table- always keep in mind the action before, and who remains to act afterwards.
Example- you hold KJ UTG+1. UTG shoves with his 80p he just bought in for. KJ figures to be well ahead of his quite wild range, so you could call. But with 4 players behind, KJ is in sorry shape if someone decides to come along- so folding is harmless. You'll have better spots to get involved, if someone else stacks him first- never mind. Another one'll be along in a minute.
Now, if UTG shoves and you're in the BB and it's folded to you, I think this is a call. He shoves with more than enough random kings+jacks compared to AK/AJ/AA/KK/QQ/JJ to make this totally profitable- his range is probably any two. With no one else involved in the hand, you can profitably get involved in a spot where your hand is good more often than not.
Whatever you do, don't get pulled into calling TOO light with freerollers. KJ is about the bottom limit- I fold A2 against them, for the simple fact that a lot of hands dominate us, and we're crushing basically nothing. Two big cards is better than one big one small here, so I call with probably A9+, KJ+, 88+. A wider range than I'd open with, but not horrifically wide. And with the marginals (88/KJ/A9) I only call if a) the shove is for less than £1, and b) there's no one else left to act.
The Maniac- £13.40
How to spot them
Maniacs play a lot of hands fast and aggressive. They tend to build big stacks, or blow them. If you see a player sat at a table with £8+ they fall into one of two categories normally- maniac or reg. You HAVE to distinguish between the two, fast. Key giveaways that your player is a maniac;
Open shoves for 100bbs+
Raises large in more than 50% of pots
Has a large chipstack
Shows down poor cards in a big pot
One of these alone doesn't fully give away your player- you have to get 2 or 3 signals to really label him. Most unknowns with a large chipstack are simply maniacs who will give it all back if you do everything right.
How to combat them
Play tight, aggressive poker. If they're a maniac, they're probably bad and won't notice you and will carry on playing the same way against you they do everyone else- horribly loose, and horribly aggressive. Wait till you have a big value hand (AQ+, JJ+) and then spike them with a solid reraise preflop. Until you've seen what they show down, or they do it more than once per orbit, NEVER call a 100bb+ shove from them without QQ+. It's very often a donk shove with AA or KK, and not worth taking the risk until you know that. If you see them donk shove with 62 or something, make a note and call them a tad wider next time. But I still wouldn't be tempted to go any lower than AJ at bare minimum.
Don't bluff them. This goes for most players at NL4, but especially these guys- they're nutters who throw chips around for fun. Wait, get a solid hand, and stack them. Be prepared to take a nasty hit if they do suckout on you though- I wouldn't get involved with a big stack maniac unless you have the stone cold nuts, or are rolled enough to wade through variance.
Pro Shortstacker- £1.60
How to spot them
They tend to buy in for £1.60 exactly, on multiple tables. If they buy in on only one or two tables, they're probably a standard NL4 fish, where everything JJ said in the op applies. If they're on multiple tables, they probably specialise in buying in small. They tend to play very tight, very aggressive, and it's hard to get any change out of them.
How to combat them
Don't get involved with them. Leave them be, when they enter a pot- be very, very aware of their range and play a very small range of hands (AK/JJ+). You could maybe throw AQ in there too. If you do play back at them, do it preflop when you're probably ahead. The implied odds when you're against a shortstacker are so small that it's simply not worth playing speculative hands against them, or getting involved with them at all- they won't enter many hands, and won't do you much harm- so just carry on playing against the softer NL4 players.
The Reg- £4
How to spot them
The reg is, as the name implies, a regular NL4 player. It's fairly simple- if they're buying in for the full £4, across 3 or more tables, they're probably a reg. Don't confuse reg with good- it doesn't necessarily hold true. Some regs are actually really bad- because they don't adjust to the better players. Don't fall into this category. Regs quite often have stacks of £8+, and if you see one with that across multiple tables- they're probably pretty good. Don't get involved with them.
How to combat them
Again, identify your player before getting involved. You have to know whether they adjust to good players or not. Until you know better, err on the side of caution- you don't lose anything by tightening up against them.
Top pair top kicker is a stack against most NL4 fish- it's basically the nuts. Against regs, it shrinks up- a lot. If you recognize they're good, they probably recognize the same about you- that means your stackoff range needs to be 2 pair+, and board dependant. If they start getting really aggro in a hand, it's probably because they have 2 pair or a set themselves, so you have to be VERY aware and be prepared to fold hands you'd stack off with against a fish.
Some regs treat you the same as the fish. Make sure you note them, and adjust accordingly. If they're willing to stack against you with second pair, let them. Widen your range slightly. But be aware- if you're playing them regularly, chances are they might start to adjust to you.
In short, you can play 'real' poker with regs. Metagame comes into it, table image- you're playing against someone who understands the game. You can bluff them a little, c-bet a little- but just bear in mind, when they get really shirty it's probably with something legit. For that reason, I prefer to steer clear of any regular player- there's plenty of fish in the sea, no need to go chasing a shark.
nice post deuces, 1 thing though, why do we want the nuts to stack v a maniac
Also where is the SPF(standard passive fish) who limps and calls lots, calls down with any pair, any draw only raises big hands? Is it because he has no particular stacksize? they usually dont top up anyway
that's just your regular NL4 reg, I should have mebbe mentioned them. They kind of appear at every level though, they're nothing special- and yea, they really don't have a particular stacksize, they come in with all kinds of amounts. As to the maniac strategy- I mean mainly tighten up preflop, and only get involved postflop with a solid part- raise preflop with AK, fold postflop if you don't hit your ace or king. Raise preflop with JJ, be very wary on an AK5 board. Here's an example from my earlier session playing a guy who fits the maniac description to a T.
I'd seen him raise a few times preflop, so I don't put him on much- when I get a nice value hand, pump it right up. Flop is as ugly as it gets for me, but I have position which is nice- no need to inflate a pot where I may well be drawing to 3-6 outs. Turn changes nothing, and at this stage I'm more confident he doesn't have an ace or queen. Another check to control the pot.
River in reality changes nothing- unless he happened to be holding J8 (unlikely with me having 2 of them) or 87, I rate to have the best hand here most of the time and can call. It's a slightly risky move, since he may have been slowplaying me, but maniacs rarely slowplay- and I can happily take down the pot.
If I bet the flop or turn here though, he may do something mental like c/r all in. It's a very popular maniac move. I've now got to fold, don't get to see anything, and have thrown away a bunch of chips on a risky and unnecessary bet.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance oregon Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £1.16 Hoppy815 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £2.89 Your hole cards J J lukeyp9206 Fold MICKREID89 Raise £0.20 £0.26 £7.23 breffnilad Fold DeucesLive Raise £0.80 £1.06 £3.46 oregon Fold Hoppy815 Fold MICKREID89 Call £0.60 £1.66 £6.63 Flop A 10 Q MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check Turn 6 MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check River 9 MICKREID89 Bet £1.66 £3.32 £4.97 DeucesLive Call £1.66 £4.98 £1.80 MICKREID89 Show 2 7 DeucesLive Show J J DeucesLive Win Pair of Jacks £4.60 £6.40
Maniacs bet, call and raise almost anything. You can call them down a little lighter, but it's best to control the pot on the flop+turn as much as possible unless you have something big- they're easy enough to stack if you wait for the goods. If you're talking about the line about waiting for the stone cold nuts unless you're rolled- +EV strategy says you should get involved with top pair type hands, but if you have a weak roll, you stand to lose a lot playing these guys- it's a risky way to build a weak bankroll. The above hand illustrates it- I rate to have the best hand more than not on the river, so it's +EV for me. But if you have a weak roll, that's a much tougher call to make- it's too risky a scenario when you have so much easier money to be had.
If you're talking about the line about waiting for the stone cold nuts unless you're rolled- +EV strategy says you should get involved with top pair type hands, but if you have a weak roll, you stand to lose a lot playing these guys- it's a risky way to build a weak bankroll. The above hand illustrates it- I rate to have the best hand more than not on the river, so it's +EV for me. But if you have a weak roll, that's a much tougher call to make- it's too risky a scenario when you have so much easier money to be had. Posted by DeucesLive
I cant think of many better spots than stacking off with tpgk against maniacs. Sure you can lose, but you would need a huge edge in the game to pass up those kind of spots
Been keeping an eye on this thread. Absolutely outstanding DOHHHHHHHH. Best thread i've seen on here. Deuces has added a nice part too. Great stuff, both of you.
Just one thing. Where was this six months ago when i first started playing poker? Could've saved me a fair bit of money. It took me ages to figure most of this out and now you go and tell everyone! Cheers guys!!
Seriously tho, i think there is advice for most people on this thread. Good stuff.
In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : I cant think of many better spots than stacking off with tpgk against maniacs. Sure you can lose, but you would need a huge edge in the game to pass up those kind of spots Posted by grantorino
but thats the thing, against these players on the whole we have a HUGE edge
Comments
EDIT : 2nd bit irrelevent.
Most altruistic of you to share it.
Question (for anyone) : At what level do you think it, in general, starts to become more like "proper poker"? Is it mostly a gradual process through the levels?
Other question (for anyone): Do you think it's better starting at NL4 regardless of BR? My latest drunken adventure took my BR up to £260 and I'm going to start taking cash seriously next week when my OU thing's done. I was thinking NL10 would be comfortable enough? Is there big differences between NL4 and NL10?
Most of it is spot on
Essentailly raise big with good hands - ABC poker
Don't bluff because they call -
Always play for value and /or expected/implied value
Also even at this level try not to play marginal hands OOP aggro, it's a headache
Top Tip: when you raise x5 BB with AA and get called in 3 spots - don't worry the guy with
84o will outdraw you and he will stack you - remember in the long run you will win that money back and a lot more if you keep playing correctly
One thing dohhh is somesone said youve called a raise with QT or QJ, ive not read properly, but unless im opening the pot on one of the tighter NL4 tables then QT and QJ is now out of my range. call me nit picking if you will.
Now to get dohhhh that trophy.
Edit: never takes long. http://twitpic.com/4z2cra
GREAT post!
I'm now going to lock myself away in a room for 2/3 days with a large notepad, a six-pack, NO mobile/TV/pooter etc.and try and get it all into my tiny poker brain! lol.
I suppose that's one of the reasons we all enjoy (most of the time!) poker, you're learning something everyday?
Pad
Excellent stuff. Thanks Dohhhhhh
YOu should call yourself "the plumber" - you've plugged my leaks!
Now to make a note against all the names on this thread in case I see them at the micro-cash tables:)
Also where is the SPF(standard passive fish) who limps and calls lots, calls down with any pair, any draw only raises big hands? Is it because he has no particular stacksize? they usually dont top up anyway
As to the maniac strategy- I mean mainly tighten up preflop, and only get involved postflop with a solid part- raise preflop with AK, fold postflop if you don't hit your ace or king. Raise preflop with JJ, be very wary on an AK5 board.
Here's an example from my earlier session playing a guy who fits the maniac description to a T.
I'd seen him raise a few times preflop, so I don't put him on much- when I get a nice value hand, pump it right up. Flop is as ugly as it gets for me, but I have position which is nice- no need to inflate a pot where I may well be drawing to 3-6 outs. Turn changes nothing, and at this stage I'm more confident he doesn't have an ace or queen. Another check to control the pot.
River in reality changes nothing- unless he happened to be holding J8 (unlikely with me having 2 of them) or 87, I rate to have the best hand here most of the time and can call. It's a slightly risky move, since he may have been slowplaying me, but maniacs rarely slowplay- and I can happily take down the pot.
If I bet the flop or turn here though, he may do something mental like c/r all in. It's a very popular maniac move. I've now got to fold, don't get to see anything, and have thrown away a bunch of chips on a risky and unnecessary bet.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance oregon Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £1.16 Hoppy815 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £2.89 Your hole cards J J lukeyp9206 Fold MICKREID89 Raise £0.20 £0.26 £7.23 breffnilad Fold DeucesLive Raise £0.80 £1.06 £3.46 oregon Fold Hoppy815 Fold MICKREID89 Call £0.60 £1.66 £6.63 Flop A 10 Q MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check Turn 6 MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check River 9 MICKREID89 Bet £1.66 £3.32 £4.97 DeucesLive Call £1.66 £4.98 £1.80 MICKREID89 Show 2 7 DeucesLive Show J J DeucesLive Win Pair of Jacks £4.60 £6.40
Maniacs bet, call and raise almost anything. You can call them down a little lighter, but it's best to control the pot on the flop+turn as much as possible unless you have something big- they're easy enough to stack if you wait for the goods.
If you're talking about the line about waiting for the stone cold nuts unless you're rolled- +EV strategy says you should get involved with top pair type hands, but if you have a weak roll, you stand to lose a lot playing these guys- it's a risky way to build a weak bankroll. The above hand illustrates it- I rate to have the best hand more than not on the river, so it's +EV for me. But if you have a weak roll, that's a much tougher call to make- it's too risky a scenario when you have so much easier money to be had.
Been keeping an eye on this thread. Absolutely outstanding DOHHHHHHHH. Best thread i've seen on here. Deuces has added a nice part too. Great stuff, both of you.
Just one thing. Where was this six months ago when i first started playing poker? Could've saved me a fair bit of money. It took me ages to figure most of this out and now you go and tell everyone! Cheers guys!!
Seriously tho, i think there is advice for most people on this thread. Good stuff.