see, you ARE missing my point. This is primarily the preflop play, by the way.
You agree with raising pre, so that's fine. You agree that it's for value, that's fine too. But you ALSO agree that it's for thinning the field!! So why do you argue against that?
You seem to be suggesting when we bet, it's for a single reason only. That's not the case. We bet for a reason, and there are generally side effects of that bet which we want to be beneficial. AKs is a case in point- this is a value hand preflop, and we want to be HU or 3way at MAX, where top pair is a monster. Of course I don't 3bet KJ/AT/77, because I WANT to be multiway in these pots- I want to flop a monster, or a really solid draw at least before continuing. I don't want to thin the field with a marginal like KJ and be HU with a hand that calls a big 3bet pre- any hand that hits my hand that's less than 2 pair could easily have hit him harder. If the board comes K94 and I hold KJ, I'm not interested. If I hold AK, I am.
However, if the board comes K94 and it's 5way with me having AK, how do I know someone hasn't limped in with K9 or 94? It's relatively unlikely they call a big 3bet pre with these hands, but the action pre means the blinds can have virtually anything with the odds they're being offered. Hence, the 3bet pre protects against these random hands, which we DO NOT WANT IN FOR FREE.
I swear you agree with this, so I don't understand the argument. On the flop, the play is much more questionable- it's not draw heavy, so there is now a case to be made for flatting- especially with so many players involved. But this all stems from not raising pre- I'm much happier to raise this and get it in on turn if I'm against 2 other players, max. I don't dislike the flat. I absolutely HATE the raise on turn after the way it's played out though.
I said that I would prefer to play against less than 5 players. That doesnt mean I agree. Also the hands already raised so blinds dont get in for free. We arent as happy stacking off with tptk 5 way, but there are lots of hands that give us a couple of streets of value, rag A etc.
What I disagree completely with is the stuff you are writing about protecting your hand against a guy binking 2 pair or trips. Its completely wrong imo. Answer the questions in my previous post, and I will see if we do agree
You prefer to play against less than 5... but you don't agree that raising pre is preferable both to get value and thin the field? You don't think it's to your benefit to offer hands like 76 bad odds to call, as opposed to the excellent implied odds they're getting?
As to your points- it depends on how he reacts when you raise. Absolutely it does. If he makes a good fold, wp to him- a lot of unknowns won't. How are you going to find out how he reacts when you raise if you don't do it? He's raised pre and led out into a multiway pot- he probably has something here, and your something probably beats it. Raising is a very valid play, but if you want to play smallball poker, so is flatting- as long as you take note of danger signal ala board pairing. If you take the pot control line on the flop, when you're strongest, you have to maintain that line IMO. As to the whole protection thing, my view is you make him pay to hit his card, or at least try to hit it. You shouldn't ever let him hit for free.
You say you can't see him continuing to a raise with many hands that don't barrel the turn- that's fair enough, you're probably right there. But he may be more likely to call when he has 2 cards to improve rather than just one.
He can't control the pot oop- not properly he can't, no. But he can try and get through to showdown cheap by going into c/c mode. Or, he may fold which is worse- we probably get his action on the flop, but a card comes down he doesn't like and he folds.
As to not being happy on this flop, I'm not happy with it 5way. Obviously I don't hate it, it's pretty dry and we probs have the best hand- but with random hands potentially in the blinds I'm not loving it so much. Cut it down to 1 or 2 opponents and I'm loving this flop, THAT'S why I raise.
You prefer to play against less than 5... but you don't agree that raising pre is preferable both to get value and thin the field? You don't think it's to your benefit to offer hands like 76 bad odds to call, as opposed to the excellent implied odds they're getting?
Their implied odds arent that good, Im not going nuts 5 way with 1 pair hands and I can pot control some ip. My main concern would be what hands all villains are likely to continue with when I 3bet, especially the original raiser. Its harder playing the hand 5way, doesnt mean its less profitable to play it 5way.
As to your points- it depends on how he reacts when you raise. Absolutely it does. If he makes a good fold, wp to him- a lot of unknowns won't. How are you going to find out how he reacts when you raise if you don't do it? He's raised pre and led out into a multiway pot- he probably has something here, and your something probably beats it. Raising is a very valid play, but if you want to play smallball poker, so is flatting- as long as you take note of danger signal ala board pairing. If you take the pot control line on the flop, when you're strongest, you have to maintain that line IMO. As to the whole protection thing, my view is you make him pay to hit his card, or at least try to hit it. You shouldn't ever let him hit for free.
I dont know how he reacts to a raise, but if hes semi competent you raising with 2 other live players in a 5 way pot looks crazy strong. I know I snapfold AJ in that spot, we are behind a range of AJ or better (I think, havent checked), Im certainly not assuming he calls with hands like A9, Tx. Any hand calls a raise will nearly always put more money in on turn, its not really about pot control (although Im not that crazy about going broke on flop) its more about trying to widen the range that puts more money in the pot. Making him pay to hit his card is fine, but not if it makes him fold hands that put in more money on turn. There are no scarecards on turn. I also dont think that T is that bad a card for us unless hes really bad
You say you can't see him continuing to a raise with many hands that don't barrel the turn- that's fair enough, you're probably right there. But he may be more likely to call when he has 2 cards to improve rather than just one. He can't control the pot oop- not properly he can't, no. But he can try and get through to showdown cheap by going into c/c mode. Or, he may fold which is worse- we probably get his action on the flop, but a card comes down he doesn't like and he folds. As to not being happy on this flop, I'm not happy with it 5way. So why raise then? Obviously I don't hate it, it's pretty dry and we probs have the best hand- but with random hands potentially in the blinds I'm not loving it so much. Cut it down to 1 or 2 opponents and I'm loving this flop, THAT'S why I raise. Posted by DeucesLive
Ok this is getting pedantic. I'll make 2 more points and leave it at that
1. Raising for protection makes no sense to me, especially on a board like this. You want a call so its a value raise, if he calls we havent protected anything
2. Just because we have the best hand doesnt automatically mean we should raise. More important factors are what range he continues with, how he reacts to certain cards coming down etc
Its hard say what is best in this hand readless. But I think I like either calling down, or vbetting 3 streets. I also think being clear about why you take every action you take is important to improving your game. The amount of times I do stuff like cbet without thinking and go wtf did I do that for on that board
In Response to Re: whats your views on this hand?? : Ok this is getting pedantic. I'll make 2 more points and leave it at that 1. Raising for protection makes no sense to me, especially on a board like this. You want a call so its a value raise, if he calls we havent protected anything 2. Just because we have the best hand doesnt automatically mean we should raise. More important factors are what range he continues with, how he reacts to certain cards coming down etc Its hard say what is best in this hand readless. But I think I like either calling down, or vbetting 3 streets. I also think being clear about why you take every action you take is important to improving your game. The amount of times I do stuff like cbet without thinking and go wtf did I do that for on that board Posted by grantorino
You guys need to agree to disagree
You want players in the hand with inferior holdings if you call or raise You should not play in fear of someone outdrawing you You should try and thin the field by raising not because your scared of the outdraw but it thins the range they are calling with Plus if you take any hand 5 way the odds are against you so you should raise to better your odds of winning by infact thinning the field. For example if you have AA you do not want to play this versus 4 do you.
lol yea, I think we'll just agree to disagree here- going nowhere fast.
Hopefully we can agree that whatever line you choose to take, you stick to it- i.e once you decide you're calling down, you don't suddenly raise at any point unless your hand improves? When the board pairs on turn, the only thought in your head should be calling down cheap.
Out of interest, since you should be thinking ahead- if you flat the turn, and he then donk shoves a bricky river, what do you do? I assume a reasonable value bet would be called as played.
lol yea, I think we'll just agree to disagree here- going nowhere fast. Hopefully we can agree that whatever line you choose to take, you stick to it- i.e once you decide you're calling down, you don't suddenly raise at any point unless your hand improves? When the board pairs on turn, the only thought in your head should be calling down cheap. Out of interest, since you should be thinking ahead- if you flat the turn, and he then donk shoves a bricky river, what do you do? I assume a reasonable value bet would be called as played. Posted by DeucesLive
Face it unless you can put the guy on a ten and fold to a shove then hey ho your stacking. At best if you say o yes 100% a 10 then maybe you can just call down cheaply. You know most of the time the guy gonna turn over Ax so you just stack
Maybe the guy has bet his ten and now because you have not raised him he has outdrawn you, and now you have to be good enough to lay down as you decided to play your hand this way. Looking at the flat pre aswell that has just decreased your percentage of winning the hand so good luck I feel as you are putting yourself in a dificult spot when this villian gets aggro with his 10 or Ax. You fold he shows Ax lol, start hitting yourself with a large brick.
Think by raising pre they will come along with Ax anyway so all is good By raising flop the Ax will come along aswell
So it's value, value value and shove turn and he will not be good enough to fold Ax
One more time, every decision I would make as this hand played out would be how to maximise value, I think we have best hand often on all streets
Raising may be best on all streets, I think there is certainly an argument for flatting flop and turn. I dont think the fact you flat flop means you cant raise turn, although if I was raising I prefer doing it on flop because you usually get called lighter, and the T maybe a scarecard for him. Raising at any point without being committed to stacking off v villain is total spew imo
Rancid, if the asumption he never folds Ax to a raise is true, raising everywhere is fine. Im not so sure its true though, and I think we can get as much value by flatting ip postflop, especially as if he checks we dont miss a street of value. Also as regards not putting ourselves in difficult spots I always kinda hate that argument, like the easiest way to play the hand is fold or shove pre, but I'm pretty certain its not the optimum way
Also as regards not putting ourselves in difficult spots I always kinda hate that argument, like the easiest way to play the hand is fold or shove pre, but I'm pretty certain its not the optimum way Posted by grantorino
I have had this convo with lots players regarding getting yourself into difficult spots, is this good or bad. I belive you should find yourself in better spots with easy decisions is optimum. To put yourself in a spot because of the way you played the hand and now you ain't got a clue what they holding then frankly I think it's bad poker. To put yourself in a spot where you have to keep making these tough calls can be the differance between good and great players and also between winning small or big pots.
I just can not see an aurgument to flatting here while you hold TPTK. Your only hoping that someone does your betting for you. If someone has TPGK then either way you play they are either going to come along or fold so why not stretch the value you get from them rarther than give them a chance to get away. While I can also see it's sometimes very profitbale to check TPTK doing the same in position just feels a bit odd unless you know this guy is going to keep betting. It's like flopping trips and a guy leads out, a raise looks more like you have not got it than just a flat. Guy shuts down on the turn and you loose value. If you raise then he will come along and you get more value.
Comments
What I disagree completely with is the stuff you are writing about protecting your hand against a guy binking 2 pair or trips. Its completely wrong imo. Answer the questions in my previous post, and I will see if we do agree
1. Raising for protection makes no sense to me, especially on a board like this. You want a call so its a value raise, if he calls we havent protected anything
2. Just because we have the best hand doesnt automatically mean we should raise. More important factors are what range he continues with, how he reacts to certain cards coming down etc
Its hard say what is best in this hand readless. But I think I like either calling down, or vbetting 3 streets. I also think being clear about why you take every action you take is important to improving your game. The amount of times I do stuff like cbet without thinking and go wtf did I do that for on that board
You want players in the hand with inferior holdings if you call or raise
You should not play in fear of someone outdrawing you
You should try and thin the field by raising not because your scared of the outdraw but it thins the range they are calling with
Plus if you take any hand 5 way the odds are against you so you should raise to better your odds of winning by infact thinning the field. For example if you have AA you do not want to play this versus 4 do you.
At best if you say o yes 100% a 10 then maybe you can just call down cheaply.
You know most of the time the guy gonna turn over Ax so you just stack
Maybe the guy has bet his ten and now because you have not raised him he has outdrawn you, and now you have to be good enough to lay down as you decided to play your hand this way.
Looking at the flat pre aswell that has just decreased your percentage of winning the hand so good luck I feel as you are putting yourself in a dificult spot when this villian gets aggro with his 10 or Ax.
You fold he shows Ax lol, start hitting yourself with a large brick.
Think by raising pre they will come along with Ax anyway so all is good
By raising flop the Ax will come along aswell
So it's value, value value and shove turn and he will not be good enough to fold Ax
Raising may be best on all streets, I think there is certainly an argument for flatting flop and turn. I dont think the fact you flat flop means you cant raise turn, although if I was raising I prefer doing it on flop because you usually get called lighter, and the T maybe a scarecard for him. Raising at any point without being committed to stacking off v villain is total spew imo
Rancid, if the asumption he never folds Ax to a raise is true, raising everywhere is fine. Im not so sure its true though, and I think we can get as much value by flatting ip postflop, especially as if he checks we dont miss a street of value. Also as regards not putting ourselves in difficult spots I always kinda hate that argument, like the easiest way to play the hand is fold or shove pre, but I'm pretty certain its not the optimum way
I belive you should find yourself in better spots with easy decisions is optimum. To put yourself in a spot because of the way you played the hand and now you ain't got a clue what they holding then frankly I think it's bad poker. To put yourself in a spot where you have to keep making these tough calls can be the differance between good and great players and also between winning small or big pots.
I just can not see an aurgument to flatting here while you hold TPTK.
Your only hoping that someone does your betting for you. If someone has TPGK then either way you play they are either going to come along or fold so why not stretch the value you get from them rarther than give them a chance to get away. While I can also see it's sometimes very profitbale to check TPTK doing the same in position just feels a bit odd unless you know this guy is going to keep betting. It's like flopping trips and a guy leads out, a raise looks more like you have not got it than just a flat. Guy shuts down on the turn and you loose value. If you raise then he will come along and you get more value.
it's an intresting thought process.