In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? :
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : Can't be worrying about runner runner outdraws. I think most hands that call a flop bet also call a turn bet - and letting the turn come is fairly safe on this board and lets a few rags catch up Posted by AyrGraeme[/QUOTE You are giving pocket pairs a chance to house up on the turn and anyone with a king with a kicker above a "5" to catch 2 pair for free! So it dont need to be runner runner. Posted by GREGHOGG
Drill em for chips/money, stations should always be charged Passive station will always give you some By betting the flop you have a better way of making sure you get all there monies by the river Personally I am only checking here v aggro players who I know can not resist having a go if checked to
ps. I have this strange gold star on the right of my posts, any ideas ?
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? :
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : Can't be worrying about runner runner outdraws. I think most hands that call a flop bet also call a turn bet - and letting the turn come is fairly safe on this board and lets a few rags catch up Posted by AyrGraeme[/QUOTE You are giving pocket pairs a chance to house up on the turn and anyone with a king with a kicker above a "5" to catch 2 pair for free! So it dont need to be runner runner. Posted by GREGHOGG
Seriously, you want to protect from 2/3 outers? We can bet for value against them, because I'd imagine a lot of them call, but betting to protect your hand makes no sense to me. They also have a huge range of 0 outers which we usually make more money against by checking. I think I still like betting flop, but its certainly not just in case someone hits a 2 outer
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : If you dont bet the flop you are losing value from hands that you are beating that will call the flop but will fold the turn. for example other pocket pairs. You are also giving three players a free card that could out draw you. Also a c-bet is expected when they all check so they might think its a bluff and are more likely to call you with hands that you crush. Im not saying i wont ever check this board, because sometimes i might. But vs poor players im always betting. Posted by GREGHOGG
Mr Torino, as per my earlier post. I AM betting for value!
But by betting for value we are also charging people to hit their 2 outers
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : Seriously, you want to protect from 2/3 outers? We can bet for value against them, because I'd imagine a lot of them call, but betting to protect your hand makes no sense to me. They also have a huge range of 0 outers which we usually make more money against by checking. I think I still like betting flop, but its certainly not just in case someone hits a 2 outer Posted by grantorino
Good post mate - you are still the only one to say they would bet the flop that I see making a reasonable argument from both points of view
The reason I posted this is because I like to provide alternative points of view to the cliches which are trotted out regularly when giving advice. Things like do the betting - raise more - normally things which involve putting chips in the pot - personally I think it's a macho, ego type thing.
Now I am not saying check with top pair v 3 opponents - generally not a clever strategy. But it's about risk reward - and varying play. Anyone out there who does not have the cahoonies to check top pair in this situation, I believe never will. Very few hands can catch up on the turn except the KJ type hands mentioned by Greg who will call the flop anyway and catch the card regardless of bet or check. If you are going to play poker paranoid about 2 outers catching then you aint gonna profit.
I still maintain checking here has greater +EV than betting the reason being a lot more hands can catch up on the turn and still be behind than can catch up and go ahead - anyone else with a K still has 2 streets of betting for me to get value off
Anyway here is the turn anyone who dislikes my flop play will positively hate this. I will happily accept the point of view for charging draws - 2 diamonds and 6/7 are now a danger but he could also be feeler cos he hit the 4 or stop betting his pocket 6s or 7s. I got a bit greedy and thought reraising the turn after checking the flop would chase away anything other than someone with 5 in their hand. One player had already folded and it was risky with the guy behind but the guy betting had about 3/4 the pot left and I knew I could bet the river sensible amount if needed to put him in but I actually had a feeling he would shove the river anyway with a draw if I showed weakness - whether it hit or missed. Since he will hit only 1 in 5 chance of winning whether it is a flush or open ended draw the odds are in my favour. The gut still to act is a bit of a worry with his stack and I know you don't want to give him a cheap card but again a calculated risk on my feel for the situation. Again there are also still plenty hands he might call with like pp or even A high but knowing he acted 1st after river would help. Turns out he folded anyway.
So in short I wanted to keep the bettor in till the river and I am putting him all in if he does not do so himself (at this point I thought he might) and I feel a reraise at this point gets rid of him. If he has hit the 4 or has a pp then I think he puts me on something like A/10 or A/J by calling and will think his hand is good. If he has a draw I am still 80% favourite. If he has the 5 he stacks me anyway.
It was a ballsy play I know, some might say stupid but hey ho. Discuss.......................
Your prob looking at PP's here maybe one came along with for value and could hold the 5 but get your reads early. It's 4 way c bet it doesn't have to be alot, just over half pot then re evaluate the turn. If you get raised on the flop its a flat call to the deep stack shove to the small stacks unless there already all in. It's a horrible spot 4 way but one you should be ahead in against decent players. If you hit the turn heads up bet out again if your three way control the pot if your 4 way its a fold
Anyway here is the turn anyone who dislikes my flop play will positively hate this.
Pad pulls up a chair....lol!
GREAT post Graeme! I'm fairly new and try to read ALL the clinic and there has been some great analysis - (GT rocks btw!) For what it's worth and for no other reason than it's how I would've played it...I'd have bet £7/8 quid on flop!
i prefer betting flop ~£3 or so rather than checking behind. after checking back and him leading the turn with the stacksizes as they are i think calling is definately the best option
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? :
Anyway here is the turn anyone who dislikes my flop play will positively hate this . Pad pulls up a chair....lol! GREAT post Graeme! I'm fairly new and try to read ALL the clinic and there has been some great analysis - (GT rocks btw!) For what it's worth and for no other reason than it's how I would've played it...I'd have bet £7/8 quid on flop! AND I'm deffo all-in to a bet on turn!! Pad Posted by Glenelg
ty bud input appreciated - i just like to go against the normal advice you get occasionally - don't get me wrong most of it is correct like play aggressive - put pressure on your opponent - most of the time right thing to do i am not denying it and you can be and many are successful cash players on here by playing that way and if you ever do anything differently you get shot down. Normally this is because these players are used to telling passive players to be more aggressive and its normally good advice - but I think some of them give this advice so much it just becomes automatic to say bet bet bet all the time rather than look at each situation individually.
It's a bit like coaching amateur footballers or even semi and low level pros - coach your defenders to kick and head it away, coach your midfielders to play the easy pass, coach your forwards to batter the ball at goal from 18 yds in - its the simple % way to play and will work at these levels if you have players who do the simple things well. But you wouldn't tell Lionel Messi not to use his flair and play a flick pass no one else could see or not to try chip an advancing keeper 1 on 1 - because he is at another level.
Now I aint claiming to be the poker equivalent to Messi - I'm far from it and there are better players on here than me but I do think some people are too automatic with their advice.
In this we have a fairly rare scenario in that nobody could outdraw me with trips or flush or straight or a higher pair on the turn and much fewer 2 pair spiking hands are there than normal so that was why i checked. Not many boards bring that scenario so i thought perfect chance to go against the normal way of playing as well as reasons 1-6 in my earlier post
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : Mr Torino, as per my earlier post. I AM betting for value! But by betting for value we are also charging people to hit their 2 outers Posted by GREGHOGG
Good point about flop bet for value for v pocket pairs but I still think we can do that on most turns especially since we gave the impression we don't have K. By checking we open up more potential hands we can bet for value against
My response is from a NL4 player mate, as in you danny bet you danny win lolz. Maybe higher up you can start playing cute and that. Posted by Dudeskin8
I appreciate your point mate as that is how I started out - and it's a good fairly autopilot type way which will work and reap a steady profit - I just think this is one case when it's best to check and even with the same relative stacks at NL4 I think it's a good play - in terms of don't bet don't win, I have every intention of betting - just not the flop - as I already said 2 out the 3 players have stacks that only need 2 bet calls to commit all their chips
Anyway here is the outcome. Well done all those who bet the flop and won a tenner. Go down the pub and buy yourself a few drinks. I, on the otherhand will take my 37, buy a nice lady some drinks and take her onto a club
For me I'm leading here half pot every time. Mainly because if you check bsck, then call bet at turn or lead turn there are few players who will get involved, your hand becomes very transparent.
Your more likely to get played back at or called with air off flop than turn, no turn cards will stimulate significant action. Plus I dont really want to go to turn 4 handed. You'll get called wider on flop than you would on later streets, also inflating the pot may cause someone to make a play at it on turn/river.
Essentialy you have a nut hand, but I also want to lead here to feel out multiple ranges. You cant discount a 5.
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : As I've said to all these replies what are the advantages of doing this on the flop that you don't get from waiting until the turn? Posted by AyrGraeme
Everybody seems to have overlooked that you may want to bet here as part of solidifying your overall game. This hand in isolation, maybe you do get most value from the check back. But if you are playing against thinking players who are taking notes etc you would consider the flop c-bet as part of balancing the range of hands you c bet with in this kind of spot, after all you want to be able to take this pot down with a flop c-bet when you have AQ AJ or whatever...
Also, everyone checks back top pair on a paired board, i would be more wary of a player checking back a flop then trying to get value on later streets rather than leading out. Again some of the easiest money comes when you make people sp.azz out, here you could get a check raise from air/ a pocket pair/ a king you dominate (or the 5).
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : I appreciate your point mate as that is how I started out - and it's a good fairly autopilot type way which will work and reap a steady profit - I just think this is one case when it's best to check and even with the same relative stacks at NL4 I think it's a good play - in terms of don't bet don't win, I have every intention of betting - just not the flop - as I already said 2 out the 3 players have stacks that only need 2 bet calls to commit all their chips Posted by AyrGraeme
LOL if the guy is calling off his stack on river with bottom pair I doubt he folds Ace high on flop. Then when he hits turn he will probably just keep paying you off.
In Response to Re: What do you do in this spot and why? : LOL if the guy is calling off his stack on river with bottom pair I doubt he folds Ace high on flop. Then when he hits turn he will probably just keep paying you off. Bet flop FTW. BTW mate you won £16. Posted by Dudeskin8
How much more money does he make by betting flop? A4 mighnt like his hand as much when he faces a 4way cbet on flop and a barrell on turn
Most importantly, try widening the way you think about the game. 95% of your posts go do this I do it at 4NL and I make a profit. That doesnt mean you are maximising your profit, or that other lines are not viable also (The majority of your advice is good,Im just saying be open to other ways of playing).
Betting may well be best on flop here, and fish may call it off anyway, but its certainly not going to be that much more profitable than letting another card comedown and betting turn
Of course playing higher up you open your game and play fancy, check, deceive etc, I'm not silly. It's just where I play if I don't bet I don't get paid so this is my opinion.
When I eventually move up I will open up heck I am very open in tourneys where I play more for fun but at NL4 I don't need to play fancy as for me it just doesn't work. I'm sure many people including you will disagree with how I play NL4 and say its too tight but it works for me so I carry on.
Comments
But by betting for value we are also charging people to hit their 2 outers
Good post mate - you are still the only one to say they would bet the flop that I see making a reasonable argument from both points of view
The reason I posted this is because I like to provide alternative points of view to the cliches which are trotted out regularly when giving advice. Things like do the betting - raise more - normally things which involve putting chips in the pot - personally I think it's a macho, ego type thing.
Now I am not saying check with top pair v 3 opponents - generally not a clever strategy. But it's about risk reward - and varying play. Anyone out there who does not have the cahoonies to check top pair in this situation, I believe never will. Very few hands can catch up on the turn except the KJ type hands mentioned by Greg who will call the flop anyway and catch the card regardless of bet or check. If you are going to play poker paranoid about 2 outers catching then you aint gonna profit.
I still maintain checking here has greater +EV than betting the reason being a lot more hands can catch up on the turn and still be behind than can catch up and go ahead - anyone else with a K still has 2 streets of betting for me to get value off
Anyway here is the turn anyone who dislikes my flop play will positively hate this. I will happily accept the point of view for charging draws - 2 diamonds and 6/7 are now a danger but he could also be feeler cos he hit the 4 or stop betting his pocket 6s or 7s. I got a bit greedy and thought reraising the turn after checking the flop would chase away anything other than someone with 5 in their hand. One player had already folded and it was risky with the guy behind but the guy betting had about 3/4 the pot left and I knew I could bet the river sensible amount if needed to put him in but I actually had a feeling he would shove the river anyway with a draw if I showed weakness - whether it hit or missed. Since he will hit only 1 in 5 chance of winning whether it is a flush or open ended draw the odds are in my favour. The gut still to act is a bit of a worry with his stack and I know you don't want to give him a cheap card but again a calculated risk on my feel for the situation. Again there are also still plenty hands he might call with like pp or even A high but knowing he acted 1st after river would help. Turns out he folded anyway.
So in short I wanted to keep the bettor in till the river and I am putting him all in if he does not do so himself (at this point I thought he might) and I feel a reraise at this point gets rid of him. If he has hit the 4 or has a pp then I think he puts me on something like A/10 or A/J by calling and will think his hand is good. If he has a draw I am still 80% favourite. If he has the 5 he stacks me anyway.
It was a ballsy play I know, some might say stupid but hey ho. Discuss.......................
It's a horrible spot 4 way but one you should be ahead in against decent players.
If you hit the turn heads up bet out again if your three way control the pot if your 4 way its a fold
For me I'm leading here half pot every time. Mainly because if you check bsck, then call bet at turn or lead turn there are few players who will get involved, your hand becomes very transparent.
Your more likely to get played back at or called with air off flop than turn, no turn cards will stimulate significant action. Plus I dont really want to go to turn 4 handed. You'll get called wider on flop than you would on later streets, also inflating the pot may cause someone to make a play at it on turn/river.
Essentialy you have a nut hand, but I also want to lead here to feel out multiple ranges. You cant discount a 5.
maybe honestdave should read this thread on how players do check TPTK
Also, everyone checks back top pair on a paired board, i would be more wary of a player checking back a flop then trying to get value on later streets rather than leading out. Again some of the easiest money comes when you make people sp.azz out, here you could get a check raise from air/ a pocket pair/ a king you dominate (or the 5).
Bet flop FTW.
BTW mate you won £16.
A4 mighnt like his hand as much when he faces a 4way cbet on flop and a barrell on turn
Most importantly, try widening the way you think about the game. 95% of your posts go do this I do it at 4NL and I make a profit. That doesnt mean you are maximising your profit, or that other lines are not viable also (The majority of your advice is good,Im just saying be open to other ways of playing).
Betting may well be best on flop here, and fish may call it off anyway, but its certainly not going to be that much more profitable than letting another card comedown and betting turn
When I eventually move up I will open up heck I am very open in tourneys where I play more for fun but at NL4 I don't need to play fancy as for me it just doesn't work. I'm sure many people including you will disagree with how I play NL4 and say its too tight but it works for me so I carry on.