In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : you can minraise/fold with the right table and image imo, with this hand in this position folding is prolly best option Posted by N1CK
Fair do that's your opinion but for me raise/folding is so terribad its scary.
In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Fair do that's your opinion but for me raise/folding is so terribad its scary. Posted by Dudeskin8
for me it would be more scary open shoving k 10 holding my breath hoping the 4 players left to act all fold, the point i was trying to make is there are conditions were it cant be that bad
Yes because if someone calls I'm not really in the mood to be cbetting 2-3 bb's after 2x it pre with a 13 BB stack (refer to Dohh's post).
Shoving imo folds out a large proportion of hands, 99+ maybe 88/77 calls, A10+ maybe A9/A8 and at a push KQ, all else folds unless we're playing bingo. On a super tight table the range is probably even smaller.
In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : so if you was on a super tight table and evryone was folding to minraises would you rather shove k 10 in ep with the same stck size? Posted by N1CK
Min raising to steal blinds is kinda pointless with K10, you may aswell do this with any two as the cards don't matter if your folding if shoved on. if you going to be playing a flop with K10 OOP then lucky be you as this hand will be easily domnated in this situation. Min raising is meant to be called when playing in position as this is way more profitbale, either you have the best hand or you c bet and you pick it up.
Doing any kind of raise with 11 bb's is not great, your either shoving flop or folding. So essentailly shove or fold pre - it's all the same. If your game plan with 11 BB's is to do any raising then you may aswell shove any two, think I would rarther shove from this postion with 67 than k10, as it's very possible when called your dominated. If your min raising to rep AA/KK then if called, if your villian hits the flop he ain't folding as your not dep enough.
you can raise/fold with 13BB imo, although I would rarely do it. Also you dont have to cbet flop if you do.You can shove,fold , maybe minraise fold, all depends on your image and other players ranges.
I dont particularly like minraise folding in this spot from info given, but the people saying its bad arent giving good reasons why its bad. In the spot nick talks about minraise folding is clearly better than openshoving imo
In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Min raising to steal blinds is kinda pointless with K10, you may aswell do this with any two as the cards don't matter if your folding if shoved on. if you going to be playing a flop with K10 OOP then lucky be you as this hand will be easily domnated in this situation. Min raising is meant to be called when playing in position as this is way more profitbale, either you have the best hand or you c bet and you pick it up. Doing any kind of raise with 11 bb's is not great, your either shoving flop or folding. So essentailly shove or fold pre - it's all the same. If your game plan with 11 BB's is to do any raising then you may aswell shove any two, think I would rarther shove from this postion with 67 than k10, as it's very possible when called your dominated. If your min raising to rep AA/KK then if called, if your villian hits the flop he ain't folding as your not dep enough. Posted by rancid
True your cards dont matter if you raise fold, but KT is obv a bluff on a very tight table
I would be surprised if 67 plays better against the vast majority of players calling ranges than KT
In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : True your cards dont matter if you raise fold, but KT is obv a bluff on a very tight table I would be surprised if 67 plays better against the vast majority of players calling ranges than KT Posted by grantorino
Range of hands there calling with will more likely hold a King or a Ten but very unlikely be holding a 6 or 7. I feel I would be easily dominated with K10 So lets presume someone makes a light call with KJ, I am in bad shape right with K10. If they call with underpair, I am racing with K10 at best, 10's or J's I am in terrible shape. At least with 67 I am live )
If called with either hand I am not liking it, would they call with worse than K9 - I don't think so So we are looking at pr's below a 10 at best so only in this sitaution K10 plays well 67 is live but dead to 8's and over - well within calling range and also in bad shape against two overs
So I guess K10 plays better against there calling range but 67 feels like a nice bad beat bluff shove o you have aces - i run out a straight
^^ Agreed about the whole "raise with KT, may aswell raise/fold any 2" - And if on the BTN/maybe CO I definititely wouldn't mind flatting instead of raising. One thing I notice is that a lot of players in the blinds will check with a lot of hands such as A9 and small pairs that will no doubt have shoved if you'd made a standard steal on the button. If you do hit the flop you're probably good most of the time. Also people don't like to fold TPWK or middle pairs when they hit a piece, so if you hit a better piece, you often get their stack.
Problem in our position is if we limp and there's 2 players in CO/BTN that are loose they might call as well and we're now OOP to one and possibly seeing the flop 4 way. At least with min-raising here, the CO/BTN should fold most of the time. Also our raise in this position is going to get respected more than if we were on the CO or BTN.
I tend to balance my min-raising raise by min-raising hands I'm happy to call a shove (JJ+, AQ/AK) to and then these types of hands where if I would shove pre and get called I'm probably in bad shape. And then I balance my shoving hands with stuff like A9+, 22-tens, KQs with some suited connector stuff.
I used to be of the opinion that 10bbs is shoving territory with a widish range but I came to realise that in a lot of tournaments I'd be doing well, and then I'd shove with hands like KT with 10bbs and get called by a better hand and go out. The Sunday Roller which I won about 3 weeks ago was a perfect example of me trying a completely new strategy. I hand no hands for ages and was very short stacked for a large part of the tourney (I had 5k chips when the blinds were up to 250/500) but I kept making sure I was about 10bbs by playing the odd hand and avoiding putting my tourney life on the risk. When I did hit a hand I doubled up and from there I was able to go on to win it. All from a strategy of limping/min-raising a balanced range as opposed to just shoving with 10bbs with any 2 decent cards.
^^ Agreed about the whole "raise with KT, may aswell raise/fold any 2" - And if on the BTN/maybe CO I definititely wouldn't mind flatting instead of raising. One thing I notice is that a lot of players in the blinds will check with a lot of hands such as A9 and small pairs that will no doubt have shoved if you'd made a standard steal on the button. If you do hit the flop you're probably good most of the time. Also people don't like to fold TPWK or middle pairs when they hit a piece, so if you hit a better piece, you often get their stack. Problem in our position is if we limp and there's 2 players in CO/BTN that are loose they might call as well and we're now OOP to one and possibly seeing the flop 4 way. At least with min-raising here, the CO/BTN should fold most of the time. Also our raise in this position is going to get respected more than if we were on the CO or BTN. I tend to balance my min-raising raise by min-raising hands I'm happy to call a shove (JJ+, AQ/AK) to and then these types of hands where if I would shove pre and get called I'm probably in bad shape. And then I balance my shoving hands with stuff like A9+, 22-tens, KQs with some suited connector stuff. I used to be of the opinion that 10bbs is shoving territory with a widish range but I came to realise that in a lot of tournaments I'd be doing well, and then I'd shove with hands like KT with 10bbs and get called by a better hand and go out. The Sunday Roller which I won about 3 weeks ago was a perfect example of me trying a completely new strategy. I hand no hands for ages and was very short stacked for a large part of the tourney (I had 5k chips when the blinds were up to 250/500) but I kept making sure I was about 10bbs by playing the odd hand and avoiding putting my tourney life on the risk. When I did hit a hand I doubled up and from there I was able to go on to win it. All from a strategy of limping/min-raising a balanced range as opposed to just shoving with 10bbs with any 2 decent cards. Posted by F_Ivanovic
I think overall once you get to a stage where your short relative to the average chip stack then you need to pick a hand you don't mind putting your tournament on and K10 is just not one of them. However you still have to find good spots to steal blinds to keep yourself above water. So from button/SB K10 becomes a nice blind stealer with a shove.
And yes I totaly agree whenever I have shoved with a K10 hand from a simliar postion I always get called by better and 9/10 I am out. I think if your shoving K10 from this postion then your desperate with 11BB's, maybe 7-9 BB's it's shovable but really out of desperation rarther than as a bluff. Once the blinds become over 20% of your stack then any two is shoveable so ......
Comments
Shoving imo folds out a large proportion of hands, 99+ maybe 88/77 calls, A10+ maybe A9/A8 and at a push KQ, all else folds unless we're playing bingo. On a super tight table the range is probably even smaller.
Doing any kind of raise with 11 bb's is not great, your either shoving flop or folding. So essentailly shove or fold pre - it's all the same. If your game plan with 11 BB's is to do any raising then you may aswell shove any two, think I would rarther shove from this postion with 67 than k10, as it's very possible when called your dominated.
If your min raising to rep AA/KK then if called, if your villian hits the flop he ain't folding as your not dep enough.
you can raise/fold with 13BB imo, although I would rarely do it. Also you dont have to cbet flop if you do.You can shove,fold , maybe minraise fold, all depends on your image and other players ranges.
I dont particularly like minraise folding in this spot from info given, but the people saying its bad arent giving good reasons why its bad. In the spot nick talks about minraise folding is clearly better than openshoving imo
I would be surprised if 67 plays better against the vast majority of players calling ranges than KT
I feel I would be easily dominated with K10
So lets presume someone makes a light call with KJ, I am in bad shape right with K10.
If they call with underpair, I am racing with K10 at best, 10's or J's I am in terrible shape.
At least with 67 I am live )
If called with either hand I am not liking it, would they call with worse than K9 - I don't think so
So we are looking at pr's below a 10 at best so only in this sitaution K10 plays well
67 is live but dead to 8's and over - well within calling range and also in bad shape against two overs
So I guess K10 plays better against there calling range
but 67 feels like a nice bad beat bluff shove
o you have aces - i run out a straight
However you still have to find good spots to steal blinds to keep yourself above water.
So from button/SB K10 becomes a nice blind stealer with a shove.
And yes I totaly agree whenever I have shoved with a K10 hand from a simliar postion I always get called by better and 9/10 I am out. I think if your shoving K10 from this postion then your desperate with 11BB's, maybe 7-9 BB's it's shovable but really out of desperation rarther than as a bluff. Once the blinds become over 20% of your stack then any two is shoveable so ......