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AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?

Giant811Giant811 Member Posts: 613
edited August 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Played this hand yester day, no reads:

Hand History #397878889 (21:50 31/07/2011)
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceGiant811Small blind 100.00100.004545.00TAT_ZXRBig blind 200.00300.004337.50 Your hole cardsAK   RogueCellAll-in 3121.253421.250.00Stevie32Fold    salty91Fold    Tommo07All-in 7327.4810748.730.00Giant811Fold    TAT_ZXRFold
Obviously against 2 opponents there is a higher chance of one of them having AA/KK, there is the risk of one of them having 1 or 2 of my outs while the other has a pocket pair, and potentially racing against 2 pocket pairs pairs there is a higher chance of one of them hitting a set/straight/flush. Is the bigger pot worth that risk or is the correct play to fold and wait for a better spot?
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    whats ur stack.
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  • Giant811Giant811 Member Posts: 613
    edited August 2011
    I need to figure out how to post these hands properly.

    I have about 23 bb.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    interesting spot tbh.

    Do you have any reads? Expessially on the 3betting player. Also stake and structure of game would help.
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  • Giant811Giant811 Member Posts: 613
    edited August 2011
    No reads I remember, tournament was the mini primo, so pretty slow blinds.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    I'd call, re-shover could be looking to isolate first shover with say AQ/AJ and worse case he has JJ/QQ your flippin.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2011
    meh call, put on ypur racing shoes
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    yea in that structure i call. Slower structure i can find a fold.
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  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited August 2011



    Good fold!  Let em fight it out. Next hand , move on,  nothing to see here.

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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited August 2011
    As anyone who reads these threads will know, I'm not overly keen on getting it in with AK when deep stacked. However, with 23 bigs here I'd shove it in. The re-shove from the big stack is simply to isolate, I wouldn't worry too much about him having the dreaded aces or kings.

    There's a 50% chance of you hitting your A or K, whereby you will {roughly} treble up. These are the kinds of hands you have to win to win tournaments.

    I'd more consider the fold against 1 player than 2, paradoxically.


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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    As anyone who reads these threads will know, I'm not overly keen on getting it in with AK when deep stacked. However, with 23 bigs here I'd shove it in. The re-shove from the big stack is simply to isolate, I wouldn't worry too much about him having the dreaded aces or kings. There's a 50% chance of you hitting your A or K, whereby you will {roughly} treble up. These are the kinds of hands you have to win to win tournaments. I'd more consider the fold against 1 player than 2, paradoxically.
    Posted by BigBluster
    What range of hands would you give the 2nd shover?

    And even the initial shover?
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  • Giant811Giant811 Member Posts: 613
    edited August 2011
    I figured one of them had A10+ and the other a pocket pair QQ down. Individually I would shove against those hands, but together as one of my outs would be gone I would no longer be flipping against the pair. Might still be worth calling due to the treble-up.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold? : What range of hands would you give the 2nd shover? And even the initial shover?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    The second shover I'd put on something like AQ/AJ or even KQ, maybe 99. The initial shover, probably a pocket pair, 44+
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011

    I've played the initial shover alot, and barring anything like tilt, I'd give them a fairly solid/predictable shoving range here....

    15.5 x bb from UTG I'd prob go with 66-JJ, AJ/AQ/AK, KQs, ATs+ ........

    The guys reshoving range is obviously abit stronger....

    99 - AA, AK/AQ AQ/AKs

    ------------------------------------------------


    According to my pokerstove thing, which I'm new-ish to using.....

    That gives you about 32%

    It's 4.5k to win 11kl, so ur just under 3/1....

    I guess that makes it a marginal fold?????

    Which surprises me, as I would snap call it normally, before doing that calculation.

    Can anyone see where I've gone wrong, or is the above a fair enough analysis?


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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited August 2011
    That gives you about 32%

    It's 4.5k to win 11kl, so ur just under 3/1....

    Maths a little out here. 32% means you need 2/1 (you know what I mean). At 4.5K into 11K, mathematically it's a goer.


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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    100/32 = 3 dunnit? am I wrong? lol

    We're only gonna win 1 in three times? :S

    Confuseddddd, I shud stay away from maths.


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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    100/32 = 3 dunnit? am I wrong? lol We're only gonna win 1 in three times? :S Confuseddddd, I shud stay away from maths.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Play the hand 3 times.
    Once you bring home 11K
    Twice you lose 4.5K

    It's why a 20% chance is the same as 4/1 not 5/1.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold? : Play the hand 3 times. Once you bring home 11K Twice you lose 4.5K It's why a 20% chance is the same as 4/1 not 5/1.
    Posted by BigBluster
    I love this explanation.

    Soooo much easier to think of it like that.

    So my instincts were right to snap call here, as I have been doing for years. Math really is idiotic ! ;):):):)
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  • Giant811Giant811 Member Posts: 613
    edited August 2011
    To be pedantic, I would only win 8800 (big stack gets some back), which would make it a marginal fold based on the 32%.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2011
    difficult spot - don't mind a fold or a call-
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    To be pedantic, I would only win 8800 (big stack gets some back), which would make it a marginal fold based on the 32%.
    Posted by Giant811
    Lol!! Another twist.

    ffs I got everything wrong in my calculations.

    So it's now a fold again!!!

    I spose the important bit though is the possible hands I credited both players with.

    Do you agree with those? Or were they too narrow/tight?
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