We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK

grantorino

I see the above posted in loads of threads, and its always stated like its an established fact. To me its far from obvious that this is true.  Can anyone explain to me why its true if indeed it is true. Lets assume cash game 100bb deep.

Dudeskin8

I'd have thought if we get 4/5 callers then there's more chance one can hit random two pair and we can't be ultra happy getting it in if one of them plays back strong. Against one villian you're usually better off imo.

LnarinOO

of course the more hands out in play then the more hands are going to flop well with draws pairs 2 pair an so on.. as long as u can fold AA KK post flop on horrible boards then multiway pots are fine but not sure why u would want to play multiway pots and have to fold and lose value from hands u rarley get?? i play mostly HU but this is my veiw

Lambert180

Yeah I mean I assume you've been reminded to bring this up after our discussion the other day.

I'd imagine that in the long term it doesnt make much difference. There's a table in a poker book I read recently and it gives the odds of winning with KK (against a random hand) if everyone plays to the end with different numbers of opponents.

1 opponents = 85%
2                 = 72%
3                 = 63%
6                 = 39%
9                 = 30%

I guess it's whether you feel like gambling or not. Obviously you will win more in a family pot but you will win them much less often so I'm not sure. I prefer to play a bit safer and be pretty sure I'm going to with a small/medium pot, than possibly lose or possibly win a big one.

Perhaps this is the wrong way to play though. I'm BR'd enough to handle being outdrawn so maybe I should lose the little ones to win the big one... i dunno.

grantorino

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

Yeah I mean I assume you've been reminded to bring this up after our discussion the other day. I'd imagine that in the long term it doesnt make much difference. There's a table in a poker book I read recently and it gives the odds of winning with KK (against a random hand) if everyone plays to the end with different numbers of opponents. 1 opponents = 85% 2                 = 72% 3                 = 63% 6                 = 39% 9                 = 30% I guess it's whether you feel like gambling or not. Obviously you will win more in a family pot but you will win them much less often so I'm not sure. I prefer to play a bit safer and be pretty sure I'm going to with a small/medium pot, than possibly lose or possibly win a big one. Perhaps this is the wrong way to play though. I'm BR'd enough to handle being outdrawn so maybe I should lose the little ones to win the big one... i dunno.
Posted by Lambert180

 My instinct would be that the more people call with worse hands the better, but then obv the later callers are getting great odds. Agree with lnarin that playing it postflop is going to require more skill and discipline. Its just something I always see thats seems to be kind of accepted as almost an axiom of poker, but I've never seen any really good explanation or math for it

Those percentages look very high to me, but I wouldnt worry to much about them anyway, people dont get to see all 5 cards generally and also they usually dont play completely random hands. Like you say less opponents will reduce variance, I'm just not sure it increases profit

rancid

for me it's very simple if you want to play AA/KK or any other hand multi way with 3-4 callers then your playing bingo poker
obviously your raising for value right - but also your raising to isolate a hand that you beat and with the raising action your atempting to get the money in ahead pre v a hand you beat - so your raising to determine how big the other hand is so you can also play the streets to get monies in
By simply going multi way it just reduces your percentage so why would you do that if you like a bet
Also going multi way then you have no idea what these 3/4 players have, giving yourself a very bad spot to try and determine if you are ahead

going multi way makes poker difficult and why would you want to do that ?
The only time it is good is when you flop massive, which is a very low percentage of the time - like i say bingo poker )

debdobs_67

Lolz at this thread just lolz , ya want 1 caller ideally and 2 max thats a fact xx

percival09

Why do you want only one caller?

I wouldn't mind taking it 2-4 way and confidently betting most flops, the only difference is if you get raised on the flop in a multi-way pot you're v.likely to be behind because it's unlikely they're ever raising draws, and therefore you can make a fold, whereas if it's a HU pot, it's v.hard to get away

jakally

Playing AA  against 1 or 2 callers, you can be reasonably happy to play for stacks most of the time (100BB deep), therefore can play it strong post flop.

Against more callers it's more likely you will have to be more cautious, and settle for playing a smaller pot, or folding to pressure.

Easier to play it against fewer callers, therefore less likely to make mistakes, therefore more likely to be profitable.

grantorino

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

for me it's very simple if you want to play AA/KK or any other hand multi way with 3-4 callers then your playing bingo poker

Disagree completely, also there are certain hands wea are quite happy to play multiway, eg setmining with small pairs

obviously your raising for value right - but also your raising to isolate a hand that you beat and with the raising action your atempting to get the money in ahead pre v a hand you beat - so your raising to determine how big the other hand is so you can also play the streets to get monies in By simply going multi way it just reduces your percentage so why would you do that if you like a bet

Going multiway decrease my chance of winning the pot. I'm not sure decreases the average profit I make.

Also going multi way then you have no idea what these 3/4 players have, giving yourself a very bad spot to try and determine if you are ahead going multi way makes poker difficult and why would you want to do that ?

Why do I have no idea what they have? Their ranges may be wider, but they still have a range, if its wider its also weaker. I dont particularly like making poker difficult, but sometimes to max your profit you have to make difficult decisions. Otherwise why not hope for everyone to fold pre, its profitable and no difficult decisions

The only time it is good is when you flop massive, which is a very low percentage of the time - like i say bingo poker )
Posted by rancid

Hi, not trying to have a go at you just your post has a lot of the points that came up in others posts as well.

Tbh, I am more comfortable playing AA hu than multiway, but thats because as loads of you have pointed out its easier but imo not neccesarily because its more profitable. There may well be an ideal number of callers, but its not clear to me what number that would be

Jakally makes some points about easier to stack off the less iplayersn the pot, which is true, but we often dont get to stack off (and we are not always good when we do). He also says it will be more profitable beacause we make less mistakes. While this may be true and is probably a valid point, I always hate going down that line of thought, because if we start playing hands in order to avoid making mistakes we are often not going to be taking the most +EV line (The example with wanting everyone to fold with AA is a rather oversimplified example of that).

I'm really not sure how many callers we want, getting it hu may well be best but I'm just interested in where the idea came from and if its true.

scrumdown

hi gran try this test m8 get a pack of cards deal your self pocket aces  against 3 dummy players deal the flop turn and the river ten times u tell me how many times your pocket aces hold up

grantorino

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

hi gran try this test m8 get a pack of cards deal your self pocket aces  against 3 dummy players deal the flop turn and the river ten times u tell me how many times your pocket aces hold up
Posted by scrumdown

What would this show me? According to pokerstove I win ~ 60%. I win ~85% against 1 random hand. This would seem if anything to indicate playing against 3 hands is better to me. But poker doesnt work like that where people all have purely random hands that all get to the river, so I dont think this has that much relevance to a real poker situation 

scrumdown

ok gran think point peeps are making is bad play to limp with pocket aces against multi callers thourgh experince its true

rancid

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK :
Posted by grantorino

No problem gran you have some valid points and I have talked about this with poker players before.

I honestly don't think that playing AA/KK multi way is profitable long term. I have no stats it's just something I feel. In the short term and under the right circumstances it can be highly worthwhile. But I think your playing higher risk going multi way with AA/KK by lowering your percentage chance of wining. If I am short stacked in a MTT and need a double up I don't mind going 2-3 way into a flop. If I am on a tight cash table pre but happy to stack light on flop then I don't mind going multi.

On the occasions I have limped along with AA/KK and/or totaly underepped my hand, you do get paid off by TPGK so in the short term it's very profitable.
If I would have raised pre then maybe they would not even see the flop to catch top pr.
But it also works the other way and a raggy ace gets there v your KK, or some 108o hits str or two pr.

Dabble with it I guess and see how it goes
I don't think there's an absolute 100% way to play AA/KK but in the majority of situations I am raising for value

If I am giving advice to a new player then ABC poker would be 100% raise AA/KK
I think this is why you here this a lot, as I am sure thats why a lot of people have said this

Lambert180

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

ok gran think point peeps are making is bad play to limp with pocket aces against multi callers thourgh experince its true
Posted by scrumdown

I might be wrong but I don't think Gran is ever suggesting just limping. I think it's a question of do you make a decent raise which may take it to 3-4 handed or do you make a really big raise which might either end it there pre-flop or go HUs.

To be fair though, it does really depend on the format and level. I'm playing 4NL at the moment, til I get my BR up a bit more and in there when you get AA you raise massive pre because the number of times you get a call (even to a 10X raise) with Q10 is ludicrous so you're just trying to get the chips in asap because I think the odds against random hands does apply more at this level.

On a table the other day with AA (2p/4p) someone raised 16p, I made it 42p, they went all in for like £1.08 and they had K4 off lol

DrSharp

I know what you mean Grantorino. If your 80% chance against one opponent and only 50% against three opponents and everyone is sat 100BB deep, if you can get everyone all-in pre then you are winning 300xBB when against 3 opponents but 100xBB against 1 opponent.

Problems being that it is never as easy as that, as you bet throught he streets, you have more decisions to make, the more decisions you make, the more chance of mistakes you make, and the more chances of opposition hands improving.

Sorry if thats a bit hazy, my head is today!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK:

I know what you mean Grantorino. If your 80% chance against one opponent and only 50% against three opponents and everyone is sat 100BB deep, if you can get everyone all-in pre then you are winning 300xBB when against 3 opponents but 100xBB against 1 opponent. Problems being that it is never as easy as that, as you bet throught he streets, you have more decisions to make, the more decisions you make, the more chance of mistakes you make, and the more chances of opposition hands improving. Sorry if thats a bit hazy, my head is today!
Posted by DrSharp

Seems a bit of a negative view and giving a low opinion of yourself. No-one is perfect but obviously if you're good then you're making as few mistakes as possible and surely these extra decisions leave room for your opponent to make mistakes as well. For instance, them getting it all in on a Q high flop with AQ.

jams88

Are we not also often getting more money from a 1 caller with a big raise than 3 callers with a smaller raise along with the increased probability of winning the pot in a HU situation it has to be best to raise big surely

Batkin88

Open fold!!

I don't mind playing multi way 3-4 but only in posistion and your hand is very disguised so i can see why you would want to do this. I have a ruling with these hands if i play passive pre with AA KK or AK unless i hit massive i will play passive post aswell and fold kings to ACE high boards and and AK if i miss. I think that works better in tournaments but seems to work!

BigRonnieC

Ideally you want to play a big pot HU with someone who also has a good hand, say a top 5% or better hand ideally. How you play the hand HU depends on the opponent, your position, your image and the flop texture etc.

That said, circumstances vary wildly, and in SOME situations, it is +EV to play AA or KK multi-way. For example, you are at a table where most people limp or min raise preflop, 2 x BB sometimes and only ever 3xBB with big hands. You had QQ earlier and raised 3BB UTG and everyone folded having classified you as TAG with a tight opening range so 3BB UTG meant a big hand.

A few hands later you have J 10o in the CO. There was was a 2BB bet before you, you flat call, SB and BB call too, 4 way pot. Flop comes 2 7 8 rainbow. It gets checked to you and you shove. Everyone folds and you show you shoved with J10o and only a gut shot straight draw. People remember this.

Sometime later you pick up the bullets and make a 2BB raise and get 3 callers. Flop comes K J 6. It gets raised before you with a call and a fold. You shove. The initial raiser has KQ and assumes his top pair Q kicker is good and that you are shoving a draw again so he calls, the other player folds, Aces hold up and you win.

Obv that version of the story didn't include the turn A and river 10 or similar suckouts, but, the moral of the story is every hand is played situationally, based on image, position, opponents etc and if it screams to you that you can outplay the other players post flop and it's better to go to flop with a few people so be it.

pr1nnyraid

There is no 'optimum' number of players you want in a pot against your AA/KK. You also have no way of controlling how many players will call a pre flop raise so its kind of silly, obviously your raise size could manipulate this a bit but ultimately it will be a case of whether an opponent decides to call/fold/raise with whatever they have and this is mostly out of your control.

i personally prefer to play a 2-3 way pot as people are more inclined to stack off with hands like TPGK, in a 4+ way pot you will rarely see players getting in 100BB's with 1 pair.

If i ever find myself in a multiway pot with an overpair i always seem to end up pot controling because i dont want to be getting check raised by a turned/rivered 2pair, but often pot controlling = missed value.

Aces and kings will be highly profitable over time, when playing them i think the main concern is to try and
Induce bluffs whilst not giving away bet sizing tells Vs your other PFR/c-betting range.