Balancing your play.

DrSharp

Right, just reading a book on cash games and i am trying to balance my play and make more deceptive moves. The following hand is only like 5% of the time i am calling with these cards, the rest of the time i am definitely raising it up. Is this a mistake in a multi pot or should i be just more deceptive heads up to make it easier. Anyway, i totally butchered this hand but is it ok just for balance 1 in 20 times in this situation and is this an easy fold? Obviously the big blind can have any two and with this action it is obvious that this particular player has the 4.

I realise this is only 4NL and it should be black and white but i am trying to get in to the habit of mixing my play up as i feel i became a bit too easy to read. Whats your lots views on balancing your play and when to do it? Really trying to improve my game here but i am not convinced.

Hand History #403032913 (17:01 15/08/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DrSharp	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.23
x	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.56
donnaj	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£1.56
	Your hole cards	J K
XAVIER57	Fold
donnaj	Check
y	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£1.29
DrSharp	Call		£0.02	£0.16	£5.21
x	Check
Flop
		4 K 4
DrSharp	Bet		£0.16	£0.32	£5.05
x	Call		£0.16	£0.48	£4.40
donnaj	Fold
y	All-in		£1.29	£1.77	£0.00
DrSharp	Fold
x	Call		£1.13	£2.90	£3.27
x	Show	4 8
y	Show	K 7
Turn
		7
River
		8
x	Win	Full House, 4s and 8s	£2.68

Lambert180

In all honesty, I know you're trying to get into good habits for when you play against people who actually know what they're doing but this is just not necessary at all at 4NL. Just play ABC poker. Good players will realise when you've got a hand etc, but you should be going after the fishes and these people will put their money in based on their hand, not yours.

Dudeskin8

DO NOT balance play at NL4.

Raise pre 20-24p.

After raising I find it hard to fold on that flop.

debdobs_67

If ya wanna make plays ( and thats fine ) DO NOT do it at nl4 xx

DrSharp

Ok, point taken! Thanks!

grantorino

How does this balance your play? You prob shouldnt bother balancing anyway, but not sure what you expect limping KJs multiway to acheive

As to the hand I sont think limping is horrible here, but I would definitely value raise

Postflop even in a limped pot I would find this really hard to fold when the shorty shoves

DrSharp

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

How does this balance your play? You prob shouldnt bother balancing anyway, but not sure what you expect limping KJs multiway to acheive As to the hand I sont think limping is horrible here, but I would definitely value raise Postflop even in a limped pot I would find this really hard to fold when the shorty shoves
Posted by grantorino[/QUOTE

I might be being very naive here but here goes. My understanding is that if i only really raise preflop with 2 broadway cards and limp with things like small pairs and the odd connector cards then it becomes obvious what type of hand i have by my pre flop action. If i throw a small percentage of limps in with the bigger hands and a few raises with my smaller gambly type of hands then that is balancing my play to make it less readable. 

I get the point of not bothering balancing my play at these levels, just trying to improve and get in to good habits. Not many at this level will be paying that much attention to whats happening around them.

You said 'not sure what you expect limping with this hand' but then said 'i dont think limping is horrible here'. Sorry, that confused me a bit, can you expand on that please?

I had to fold as my notes on villain with the 4 was that they only really go for it when they have monsters, never seen em do it with anything weaker than what i had and with them being on the BB its quite possible they have the 4.

I just read this back, and i dont mean this to sound a mardy, i value the opinions on this forum and its helped me alot, just trying to learn.

Thankyou.

Dudeskin8

Honestly MOST players at NL4 only see THEIR cards, they don't register what you're doing or even care they just wanna play cards and have a good time, this involves playing everyhand in every position.

Limping here has let in 48 for free when you could have isolated K7 and won a nice pot.

DrSharp

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

Honestly MOST players at NL4 only see THEIR cards, they don't register what you're doing or even care they just wanna play cards and have a good time, this involves playing everyhand in every position. Limping here has let in 48 for free when you could have isolated K7 and won a nice pot.
Posted by Dudeskin8

I know this Dudeskin, i really do. I used to 100% raise this to 20p/32p no problems. Maybe i am thinking too much. I am a winning player at this level and have spun a tidy little bankroll up, just trying to add things to my game but this limping lark with good playable hands just doesnt seem right but i understand the logic behind it. It probably doesnt work at this level but i have won a few tidy pots with this strategy against some of the regs in the last couple of weeks or so, so it has its benefits.

The way to beat NL4 isnt even ABC poker, probably AB poker will do. Just wondered if this play is ok sometimes as long as you can get away in this particular circumstance?

beaneh

Do the opposite of balance against week players.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. : I know this Dudeskin, i really do. I used to 100% raise this to 20p/32p no problems. Maybe i am thinking too much. I am a winning player at this level and have spun a tidy little bankroll up, just trying to add things to my game but this limping lark with good playable hands just doesnt seem right but i understand the logic behind it. It probably doesnt work at this level but i have won a few tidy pots with this strategy against some of the regs in the last couple of weeks or so, so it has its benefits. The way to beat NL4 isnt even ABC poker, probably AB poker will do. Just wondered if this play is ok sometimes as long as you can get away in this particular circumstance?
Posted by DrSharp

That's good for you mate but tbh you shouldn't really ever need to get involved with regs at NL4, also I read on a thread you have £180 roll, if this is true STOP playing NL4 and at least play NL8.

Codex

you don't need to balance your play with KJ cause you shouldn't be playing it that often


first thing to do is never ever limp

then you balancing is to do with whether you 3bet or just call with hands - you dont want people to know if you 3 bet u have AA KK or QQ

then post flop, vary what you do with weak and strong hands


BUT only vary your play against people you are pretty sure are paying attention to what you are doing

DrSharp

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. : That's good for you mate but tbh you shouldn't really ever need to get involved with regs at NL4, also I read on a thread you have £180 roll, if this is true STOP playing NL4 and at least play NL8.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Lol, yeah i did step up to NL8 a while ago and did fairly well and got to 196 quid but then lost a few buy ins and dropped to 150 quidish after a real downturn that lasted a month, couldnt buy a pot and suffered some horrific beats. It affected my confidence so i dropped back to NL4 and started grinding again. I want to get to 200ish before i step up again really and meanwhile these books i am reading means i am tweaking my game slightly and i'd rather mess about down at NL4 until i get some of these tweaks right. Might be a bit nitty, but thats me.

Thanks for your input mate, its appreciated. I am keeping an eye on you as you progress as i feel you maybe a few weeks/months in front of me and its obviously an interest of mine to see how a solid winning NL4 player finds his way as he steps up. I'm just trying to do everything i can to improve at the moment, i still make the stupidest of mistakes sometimes and i need to just tighten it up a tad.

DrSharp

Thanks Codex and Beaneh, thats pretty much why i posted the hand. Save it for the better players. Thanks for the replies guys.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. : Lol, yeah i did step up to NL8 a while ago and did fairly well and got to 196 quid but then lost a few buy ins and dropped to 150 quidish after a real downturn that lasted a month, couldnt buy a pot and suffered some horrific beats. It affected my confidence so i dropped back to NL4 and started grinding again. I want to get to 200ish before i step up again really and meanwhile these books i am reading means i am tweaking my game slightly and i'd rather mess about down at NL4 until i get some of these tweaks right. Might be a bit nitty, but thats me. Thanks for your input mate, its appreciated. I am keeping an eye on you as you progress as i feel you maybe a few weeks/months in front of me and its obviously an interest of mine to see how a solid winning NL4 player finds his way as he steps up. I'm just trying to do everything i can to improve at the moment, i still make the stupidest of mistakes sometimes and i need to just tighten it up a tad.
Posted by DrSharp

LOL I can assure you I'm the same if not more, best way to be imo at least till you're playing the silly levels.
 
In terms of NL8 it might be worth playing 1xNL8 and say 2/3X NL4 to get into it but defo with over 20 BI's at NL8 you should play at that level and for me it's basically NL4.

rancid

I don't think balancing your play is just limping marginal holdings.
For me it's doing the same thing with various differant starting hands.
So for example raise to 20p with JJ and 78s

I could be totaly off the mark here but essentially it's not being predictable.
This really does apply to online where there is software that tracks your patterns and
people can use this against you. This is like high level stuff so really not for NL4.
Just keep betting/raising for value.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. :

How does this balance your play? You prob shouldnt bother balancing anyway, but not sure what you expect limping KJs multiway to acheive As to the hand I sont think limping is horrible here, but I would definitely value raise Postflop even in a limped pot I would find this really hard to fold when the shorty shoves Posted by grantorino[/QUOTE I might be being very naive here but here goes. My understanding is that if i only really raise preflop with 2 broadway cards and limp with things like small pairs and the odd connector cards then it becomes obvious what type of hand i have by my pre flop action. If i throw a small percentage of limps in with the bigger hands and a few raises with my smaller gambly type of hands then that is balancing my play to make it less readable.  I get the point of not bothering balancing my play at these levels, just trying to improve and get in to good habits. Not many at this level will be paying that much attention to whats happening around them. You said 'not sure what you expect limping with this hand' but then said 'i dont think limping is horrible here'. Sorry, that confused me a bit, can you expand on that please? I had to fold as my notes on villain with the 4 was that they only really go for it when they have monsters, never seen em do it with anything weaker than what i had and with them being on the BB its quite possible they have the 4. I just read this back, and i dont mean this to sound a mardy, i value the opinions on this forum and its helped me alot, just trying to learn. Thankyou.
Posted by DrSharp

Ok, firstly beanehs post basically sums it up, dont balance against bad players. Also you dont really need to balance ranges too much until your up a good few levels and even then its prob only really necessary against villains who have played a lot of hands against you and are good hand readers. 

The comment about limping KJ was what effect do you expect it to have on villains perception of you. He's prob not paying attention, its not the kind of hand that he prob expects you to definitely raise anyway in a multiway pot. I just cant really see any point to limping here if its solely to balance.

As regards the fold, obv if your notes say fold thats fine. Just hes a shorty who can easily have worse Ks and draws if he was an unknown imo 

grantorino

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

Honestly MOST players at NL4 only see THEIR cards, they don't register what you're doing or even care they just wanna play cards and have a good time, this involves playing everyhand in every position. Limping here has let in 48 for free when you could have isolated K7 and won a nice pot.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Not the reason to raise

debdobs_67

Its been said b4 but i will say it again drsharp , nl8 and nl10 are the same as nl4 but with alot LESS bad players xx

EDIT i stepped up over the weekend and played a few nl20 and nl30 tables and despite what some think it WAS a totally diff game

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. : Not the reason to raise
Posted by grantorino

Well I'd rather make him pay then see it free, explain please ?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Balancing your play.:

In Response to Re: Balancing your play. : Well I'd rather make him pay then see it free, explain please ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

+1 cos i did'nt get this either