NL4 is what it is. If two cards can work together (suited connectors, Ax suited etc) then in late position i dont mind a limp-a-long if the table is playing really weak and i get to see loads of cheap flops in position, this can only be good news. Hit your monster and start shovelling the chips in the middle. I wouldnt advocate open limping with these hands but use position to your advantage when playing these hands.
Yes played correctly like after around 30 limps then obvz it's just about ok but I'd always discourage limping with anything but small pairs as it takes you closer to being a simple bingo player and that's not what you want to do at NL4, well unless you play for fun.
Yes played correctly like after around 30 limps then obvz it's just about ok but I'd always discourage limping with anything but small pairs as it takes you closer to being a simple bingo player and that's not what you want to do at NL4, well unless you play for fun. Posted by Dudeskin8
lol
fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4
fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called
fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz
fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop
fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands
In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : lol fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4 fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands Posted by rancid
Fact - I very rarely c-bet multiway if I miss, and even more rarely if I'm out of position.
Fact - I'm very rarely bluffing outside of c-betting in postion.
Fact - I'm NEVER NEVER NEVER limping pe flop with value hands.
FACT - I'm completely failing to see how limping with junk is going to improve my micro cash game and results.
With regards to limping at NL4, it is something you can use with certain hands and reads on the table IMO. For example, if there's hardly any raises pre-flop, and I pick up 78s UTG, I don't really want to be raising, and getting called by someone with ATC who is likely still ahead of me with an over card. However, I don't really want to be folding a hand like that which flops well, and if I hit the flop, will likely result in me stacking somebody, so I do limp on occasion at NL4. Will also do this with small pocket pairs, looking to set mine occasionally - If I have 22, I would normally just fold, but on a table with hardly any pre-flop action, I'm happy to pay 4p to see a flop and if I don't hit a 2, just check/fold. It's only cost me 4p, and that's worth it if I stack someone when I flop my set, which is about a 6/1 shot.
I would never dream of limping in on a higher stakes game. However, at NL4, it's not always the worst play in the world with certain hands assuming you have the discipline to throw them away if you don't see the flop you're after, which I imagine most regulars on here would.
Small pairs up to say 88 UTG and UTG+1 is fine to limp as you get main value from flopping sets and if you get raise behind calling is still fine given they have decent stack behind, when you raise yourself say to 3-4x then get 3bet to 8-9x it is now awkward to play plus you'remost likely OOP.
With SC's open limping in ANY position is pretty awful as far as I'm concerned, if you have 2-3 limpers and you're on the button/CO then it might be ok but in general I prefer a fold as it's hard to flop anything decent and if you don't flop 2pr/trips it'll just be draws and even then you'll ALWAYS be a dog to a made hand so longterm a loser as you have hardly any FE at NL4 so it's all about hitting the draw.
Another point that I think is important is that if you even think about open limping with SC's it shows you are possibly bored and hence need to play more tables imo.
In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : Fact - I very rarely c-bet multiway if I miss, and even more rarely if I'm out of position. Fact - I'm very rarely bluffing outside of c-betting in postion. Fact - I'm NEVER NEVER NEVER limping pe flop with value hands. FACT - I'm completely failing to see how limping with junk is going to improve my micro cash game and results. Posted by harding10
You not listen ! I am not having a go at you, just giving you some advice as maybe you game is very predictable which in turn makes it very boring for yourself (
Don't be afriad to limp along with marginal hands (not junk) that flop and draw to the 2nd nuts/nuts
It is not beneficial to be raising these hands al NL4 in general as you go multi way and therefore you c betting/bluffing more than you should be - which is not advisable at NL4 unless you have enough equity
Limping in general is bad, limping in NL4 is fine with certain hands from certain postions Look at hands and there potencial
ie. 2 limps , you have KJs, raise or limp ? fine to limp Potencial str/flushes/good two prs/ good top pairs
Players at NL4 will limp with any 2 especially if there suited or anyway connected These players are playing poker bingo, exploit these by playing the same but with the nutz/2nd nutz drawing hands and not Q9s )
Take my advice or leave it tbh, I ain't no expert
IMO there's too much "don't ever limp" on SKY and frankly while this perfectly true, this is not the case at NL4 - why you ask ? Because they will let you limp at NL4 and you can stack them with the better hand - also it's a differant game to other cash levels and MTT/DYM/STT where limping acheives nothing
BTW you can narrow your limping range so you do not leak, I'll leave you to work that one out
In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : You not listen ! I am not having a go at you, just giving you some advice as maybe you game is very predictable which in turn makes it very boring for yourself ( Don't be afriad to limp along with marginal hands (not junk) that flop and draw to the 2nd nuts/nuts It is not beneficial to be raising these hands al NL4 in general as you go multi way and therefore you c betting/bluffing more than you should be - which is not advisable at NL4 unless you have enough equity Limping in general is bad, limping in NL4 is fine with certain hands from certain postions Look at hands and there potencial ie. 2 limps , you have KJs, raise or limp ? fine to limp Potencial str/flushes/good two prs/ good top pairs Players at NL4 will limp with any 2 especially if there suited or anyway connected These players are playing poker bingo, exploit these by playing the same but with the nutz/2nd nutz drawing hands and not Q9s ) Take my advice or leave it tbh, I ain't no expert IMO there's too much "don't ever limp" on SKY and frankly while this perfectly true, this is not the case at NL4 - why you ask ? Because they will let you limp at NL4 and you can stack them with the better hand - also it's a differant game to other cash levels and MTT/DYM/STT where limping acheives nothing BTW you can narrow your limping range so you do not leak, I'll leave you to work that one out remember this is not gospel - it's just my opnion Posted by rancid
Post of the week IMO, everything i wanted to say but couldnt be bothered. I have lost count of the number of players who moan they cant beat NL4 or it is boring playing ABC, Uber nitty poker but do not listen to people who give advice on alternative ways to play.
In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : lol fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4 fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands Posted by rancid
Fact - You don't NEED to draw to the nuts/2nd nuts because so often people at 4NL will stack off with TPTK, TPGK, 2nd pair and much worse.
Fact - As much as you do get serial limpers at 4NL, when you raise it pre to 20p+ that does generally reduce it to make 1-2 callers.
Fact - You are playing poker... it's merely a different style of play, and it's a style that EVERYONE needs to have in their arsenal, no matter how often they choose to bring it out.
Fact - It's all very good saying limp with JTs cos you might flop the nuts, but when you do and the pot is about 12p cos no-one raised, you're gonna REALLY struggle to get his £4 in the middle unless it's a cooler for him (which is not that often)
OK, here's ,my take on some of the hand suggestions for limping with, see what you gents think.
K3 suited - utter garbage, fold. I'd be playing 80/1 shots and probably not getting paid well enough often enough to be ev+
A4 suited - not great but a few more outs there and might just consider multi-way, but not over convinced its ev+ long term.
Suited connectors - OK, but at nl4 I'd want JT+ & multi-way, you can soon be in trouble against someone who limps any 2 sooted . I wouldn't be open limping from early position hoping others might join the party.
KJ suited - personally I'd raise with that, even with limpers in the pot.
Axs, broadway cards, suited connectors and gap connectors, small prs
see how you get on
remember if you limp 10 bigs in a 2 hour session, it's not that bigger deal as long as your getting paid on your big value hands
what I would say is, if your in late position raise but only if you think it's going to thin the field, if your raises are getting called multi way then what are you acheiving by raising ? Only inflating a pot with a marginal hand, leaving you to miss the majority of the time and therefore your c bet has to be bigger - c betting multi way when you miss is never good as there's a greater chance someone has connected with the flop If you going to c bet with a missed pre flop raise with K10s, then ensure the siuation is good, are you IP, how many oppo, who is oppo, texture of flop....if you feel your c bet will not get through then dont' bother If you hit TP oop then consider checking on dry flops.. As soon as your hand turn into a big value hand then revert to rule number 1. BET BIG
Also if you pick up equity on flop, bet IP - check OOP
HAVE FUN ) I feel if you vary your game it will only do you good m8'ty
try Axs, broadway cards, suited connectors and gap connectors, small prs see how you get on remember if you limp 10 bigs in a 2 hour session, it's not that bigger deal as long as your getting paid on your big value hands what I would say is, if your in late position raise but only if you think it's going to thin the field, if your raises are getting called multi way then what are you acheiving by raising ? Only inflating a pot with a marginal hand, leaving you to miss the majority of the time and therefore your c bet has to be bigger - c betting multi way when you miss is never good as there's a greater chance someone has connected with the flop If you going to c bet with a missed pre flop raise with K10s, then ensure the siuation is good, are you IP, how many oppo, who is oppo, texture of flop....if you feel your c bet will not get through then dont' bother If you hit TP oop then consider checking on dry flops.. As soon as your hand turn into a big value hand then revert to rule number 1. BET BIG Also if you pick up equity on flop, bet IP - check OOP HAVE FUN ) I feel if you vary your game it will only do you good m8'ty Posted by rancid
And that's why you DONT play marginal hands at this level. Stick to strong hands and then when you are inflating the pot with the likes of AA/KK/QQ/AK they're gonna come back to you more often than not. A big thing about 4NL is not get attached to big cards that don't hit... the numbers of times I'm speechless when I've seen someone call my 3/4pot bet on the flop, turn and river with AK on say 3589Q board. It's so easy to get paid off at this level so you raise your hands like AK/AQ and when you hit TPTK or TP very good kicker, you're in great shape to stack someone, don't hit, get rid.
Harding know's how to play ABC big hands, big bet NL4 poker
It would seem he has got to a point where he want's to adapt, hence the advice
Correct me if I am wrong Harding but it looks like your saying your not getting paid playing ABC using the guides and finding it difficult at the moment. I merely offer something else to mix in to your current solid game.
I'm sorry but this style of play will NEVER not work under the right circumstances. I've done it myself, like starting to doubt my game when things aren't going your way.
But I guarantee if he's sticking to the strategy and still isn't winning, its either down to bad table selection or just run bad, and nothing to do with the strategy.
I've been around since Feb 2010, and I've managed to make a small profit most months playing mainly low stakes deepstacks and stt's. I play pretty tight, patient ABC poker with good BRM, and have never bust my original £5 deposit playing like this. Purely recreational.
I've had a go at micro stakes cash over the last 3 months, and taken my game just a bit more seriously. I've made a couple of changes to my game from cash tips posted by Dudeskin and DOHHHHHHH, nothing massive but it's plugged a couple of leaks in my game. My C-betting oop is now more restricted, and there are hands I would now raise with but not call a raise with.
Playing like this I've doubled my BR over the last 3 months, but it's all come through the changes improving my tournament results, I've about broken even with cash. October and November have been my highest profit mtt/stt months so far. It's leaving me frustrated with cash at the moment.
Hopefully Lambert's right and it has more to do with table selection and variance. Whichever way I'm starting December on stt's and mtt's and playing low volume, and I'll have another go at nl4 when my head's clearer.
The ABC strategy is fine There's more ways to skin a cat, if you think not then I wish you good luck Posted by rancid
Oh I most definitely agree with you that there are multiple ways to remove the skin of felines. I just think Dohhhh and many others have found the easiest way of doing it against the serial limp/callers at these levels.
I would never expect to play the same game I do at these levels, when I play 20NL or higher but that's poker isn't it, you adapt your game to the table.
Played a little nl20 to qualify for the grotto tourney at Christmas, played slightly differently than I had at nl4 and made a profit doing it which gave me something to think on.
Went back to nl4 after Christmas playing this same way and have quietly worked my way up since. Started with £100 BR and was over £160 by about the 20th of January. Moved up to a bit of nl8 and hit a couple of bad beats straight away plus some mtt losses. Went back down to nl4 where I had a period of AA and KK getting cracked almost every time.
I'm through that again for now and have quite a comfy BR for nl8 again although I'm currently playing mostly nl4 and increasing tables played to 6. Now I'm more confident with the decisions I'm making playing a couple of extra tables is becoming much easier, where a month ago 4 was pushing me a little bit.
Due to current circumstances off of the tables I'll probably keep going with mainly higher volume nl4 and a little nl8 if there's an attractive table until I'm at £200+ then mix nl8 and nl10.
Comments
Fact - I'm very rarely bluffing outside of c-betting in postion.
Fact - I'm NEVER NEVER NEVER limping pe flop with value hands.
FACT - I'm completely failing to see how limping with junk is going to improve my micro cash game and results.
With SC's open limping in ANY position is pretty awful as far as I'm concerned, if you have 2-3 limpers and you're on the button/CO then it might be ok but in general I prefer a fold as it's hard to flop anything decent and if you don't flop 2pr/trips it'll just be draws and even then you'll ALWAYS be a dog to a made hand so longterm a loser as you have hardly any FE at NL4 so it's all about hitting the draw.
Another point that I think is important is that if you even think about open limping with SC's it shows you are possibly bored and hence need to play more tables imo.
Don't be afriad to limp along with marginal hands (not junk) that flop and draw to the 2nd nuts/nuts
It is not beneficial to be raising these hands al NL4 in general as you go multi way and therefore you c betting/bluffing more than you should be - which is not advisable at NL4 unless you have enough equity
Limping in general is bad, limping in NL4 is fine with certain hands from certain postions
Look at hands and there potencial
ie. 2 limps , you have KJs, raise or limp ? fine to limp
Potencial str/flushes/good two prs/ good top pairs
Players at NL4 will limp with any 2 especially if there suited or anyway connected
These players are playing poker bingo, exploit these by playing the same but with the nutz/2nd nutz drawing hands and not Q9s )
Take my advice or leave it tbh, I ain't no expert
IMO there's too much "don't ever limp" on SKY and frankly while this perfectly true, this is not the case at NL4 - why you ask ? Because they will let you limp at NL4 and you can stack them with the better hand - also it's a differant game to other cash levels and MTT/DYM/STT where limping acheives nothing
BTW you can narrow your limping range so you do not leak, I'll leave you to work that one out
remember this is not gospel - it's just my opnion
Post of the week IMO, everything i wanted to say but couldnt be bothered. I have lost count of the number of players who moan they cant beat NL4 or it is boring playing ABC, Uber nitty poker but do not listen to people who give advice on alternative ways to play.
I will shut up now before i start ranting.
Fact - As much as you do get serial limpers at 4NL, when you raise it pre to 20p+ that does generally reduce it to make 1-2 callers.
Fact - You are playing poker... it's merely a different style of play, and it's a style that EVERYONE needs to have in their arsenal, no matter how often they choose to bring it out.
Fact - It's all very good saying limp with JTs cos you might flop the nuts, but when you do and the pot is about 12p cos no-one raised, you're gonna REALLY struggle to get his £4 in the middle unless it's a cooler for him (which is not that often)
Try incorporating something else
STOP being told how to play and work it out for yourself, you can find a balance that works and a style that you ENJOY playing
More importantly try something that you enjoy and brings a smile to your face when playing
K3 suited - utter garbage, fold. I'd be playing 80/1 shots and probably not getting paid well enough often enough to be ev+
A4 suited - not great but a few more outs there and might just consider multi-way, but not over convinced its ev+ long term.
Suited connectors - OK, but at nl4 I'd want JT+ & multi-way, you can soon be in trouble against someone who limps any 2 sooted . I wouldn't be open limping from early position hoping others might join the party.
KJ suited - personally I'd raise with that, even with limpers in the pot.
Feel free to shoot holes in that.
Axs, broadway cards, suited connectors and gap connectors, small prs
see how you get on
remember if you limp 10 bigs in a 2 hour session, it's not that bigger deal as long as your getting paid on your big value hands
what I would say is, if your in late position raise but only if you think it's going to thin the field, if your raises are getting called multi way then what are you acheiving by raising ? Only inflating a pot with a marginal hand, leaving you to miss the majority of the time and therefore your c bet has to be bigger - c betting multi way when you miss is never good as there's a greater chance someone has connected with the flop
If you going to c bet with a missed pre flop raise with K10s, then ensure the siuation is good, are you IP, how many oppo, who is oppo, texture of flop....if you feel your c bet will not get through then dont' bother
If you hit TP oop then consider checking on dry flops..
As soon as your hand turn into a big value hand then revert to rule number 1. BET BIG
Also if you pick up equity on flop, bet IP - check OOP
HAVE FUN )
I feel if you vary your game it will only do you good m8'ty
It would seem he has got to a point where he want's to adapt, hence the advice
Correct me if I am wrong Harding but it looks like your saying your not getting paid playing ABC using the guides and finding it difficult at the moment. I merely offer something else to mix in to your current solid game.
But I guarantee if he's sticking to the strategy and still isn't winning, its either down to bad table selection or just run bad, and nothing to do with the strategy.
There's more ways to skin a cat, if you think not then I wish you good luck
I've been around since Feb 2010, and I've managed to make a small profit most months playing mainly low stakes deepstacks and stt's. I play pretty tight, patient ABC poker with good BRM, and have never bust my original £5 deposit playing like this. Purely recreational.
I've had a go at micro stakes cash over the last 3 months, and taken my game just a bit more seriously. I've made a couple of changes to my game from cash tips posted by Dudeskin and DOHHHHHHH, nothing massive but it's plugged a couple of leaks in my game. My C-betting oop is now more restricted, and there are hands I would now raise with but not call a raise with.
Playing like this I've doubled my BR over the last 3 months, but it's all come through the changes improving my tournament results, I've about broken even with cash. October and November have been my highest profit mtt/stt months so far. It's leaving me frustrated with cash at the moment.
Hopefully Lambert's right and it has more to do with table selection and variance. Whichever way I'm starting December on stt's and mtt's and playing low volume, and I'll have another go at nl4 when my head's clearer.
I would never expect to play the same game I do at these levels, when I play 20NL or higher but that's poker isn't it, you adapt your game to the table.
Went back to nl4 after Christmas playing this same way and have quietly worked my way up since. Started with £100 BR and was over £160 by about the 20th of January. Moved up to a bit of nl8 and hit a couple of bad beats straight away plus some mtt losses. Went back down to nl4 where I had a period of AA and KK getting cracked almost every time.
I'm through that again for now and have quite a comfy BR for nl8 again although I'm currently playing mostly nl4 and increasing tables played to 6. Now I'm more confident with the decisions I'm making playing a couple of extra tables is becoming much easier, where a month ago 4 was pushing me a little bit.
Due to current circumstances off of the tables I'll probably keep going with mainly higher volume nl4 and a little nl8 if there's an attractive table until I'm at £200+ then mix nl8 and nl10.