In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : I hear you Dude ! I would like to hear what other players think about my pre call with 45s Bad/good I am either stacking someone or not so… speculative yes – bad I am not so sure as long as you fold flops where your not hitting 2pr/SD/FD Posted by rancid
Therefore you're basically bleeding money and sorry but this is fish play mate.
OOP also makes it worse, IP on btn facing minraise I might think about it sat VERY deep but a 5x raise is a lot and you keep doing this in SB you are setting fire to money, at higher levels I often see the GOD (yes God not good lol) players (lolufold, LOL_RAISE, etc) 3bet with these hands as they can take it down pre or have a disguised hand on the flop and also betting lead so can cbet most flops.
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Hi lol_raise , are ya sayin thats at this specific level OR at all levels ? i play nl10 mostly BUT have had a few sessions at nl20 / nl30 lately and i see this type of hand played pretty often xx Posted by debdobs_67
its too weak to call out of the blinds with because your out of position and will have to make some tough flop and turn calls when you hit a piece of the flop but not enough to feel confident in your hand. At higher levels you can turn your hand into a bluff when you miss or 3bet it pre so theres other ways to make the play profitable but at nl4 its not the best idea to be trying to bluff people, as is shown in this hand.
Also as a general rule dont do what other people do at those levels. Everyone at nl20/30 has leaks and probably play way too many hands.
i think flop is probably a fold w/o more reads def fold 45s pre unsure if i like turn bet either! Posted by LOL_RAISE
Yeah the turn bet looks a bit fishy by me as yeah maybe I am only getting called by a hand that’s beating me right?My perspective:
Pre - I got Don on a range of mid-high pr’s or two broad way cards
So I call loosely to maybe I can get his stack if the right flop comes down –
My flop - I bet flop slightly bigger than pot to get chips in against anyone with a draw/over pair,
When Don calls the flop donk bet I can rule out the draw, he is a decent player and would not pay that much to draw would he . I think he would just fold or shove with a draw
Good or bad to think this? We are not greater than 100BB’s so a call with a draw here I don’t think he would do this – there are plenty of players at NL4 who would pay pt or > to draw so I am betting for value 100% while I am ahead
So when the turn fills the flush I am not bothered as I don’t think he is drawing–
I bet turn for value and to get him in deeper for the river shove or maybe he will shove on me as a bluff
I really expected to see a fold or semi bluff shove here
On the river I am c/c anyway as I have gone this far so I just shove
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Yeah the turn bet looks a bit fishy by me as yeah maybe I am only getting called by a hand that’s beating me right? My perspective: Pre - I got Don on a range of mid-high pr’s or two broad way cards So I call loosely to maybe I can get his stack if the right flop comes down – My flop - I bet flop slightly bigger than pot to get chips in against anyone with a draw/over pair, When Don calls the flop donk bet I can rule out the draw, he is a decent player and would not pay that much to draw would he . I think he would just fold or shove with a draw Good or bad to think this? We are not greater than 100BB’s so a call with a draw here I don’t think he would do this – there are plenty of players at NL4 who would pay pt or /> to draw so I am betting for value 100% while I am ahead So when the turn fills the flush I am not bothered as I don’t think he is drawing– I bet turn for value and to get him in deeper for the river shove or maybe he will shove on me as a bluff I really expected to see a fold or semi bluff shove here On the river I am c/c anyway as I have gone this far so I just shove Please tell me if this is good or bad Posted by rancid
The one flaw is with something say A8/7cc (not that id call there pre) id pay your stack as my price for my draws.
However as u correctly said the flop bet screems stremnth to me at this level, howevere i think the alohol spoke a little. I was confident you didnt have clubs when u continued on turn so i felt i had a double draw to hit. The river hitting my set was lucky but clubs and 8s i felt were live too.
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Therefore you're basically bleeding money and sorry but this is fish play mate. OOP also makes it worse, IP on btn facing minraise I might think about it sat VERY deep but a 5x raise is a lot and you keep doing this in SB you are setting fire to money, at higher levels I often see the GOD (yes God not good lol) players (lolufold, LOL_RAISE, etc) 3bet with these hands as they can take it down pre or have a disguised hand on the flop and also betting lead so can cbet most flops. Posted by Dudeskin8
Ok Dude, calm – tight is right 100% agree – ABC – bet for value – got ya )I would not advise playing like this with 45s OOP v 2 –But sometimes you got to gamble and speculative loose calls like this are probably a very small percentage of my starting hands – honest )I do think though this could be a leak in my game as it’s a bit spewy calling like this. But like Offshoot mentioned in his post about getting into bad spots, I don’t get attached to five high flops – I can easily fold these
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Ok Dude, calm – tight is right 100% agree – ABC – bet for value – got ya ) I would not advise playing like this with 45s OOP v 2 –But sometimes you got to gamble and speculative loose calls like this are probably a very small percentage of my starting hands – honest )I do think though this could be a leak in my game as it’s a bit spewy calling like this. But like Offshoot mentioned in his post about getting into bad spots, I don’t get attached to five high flops – I can easily fold these Posted by rancid
Exactly most the time you hit 5 high flops or even worse so long term you're just losing money, you say sometimes you got to 'gamble', 'specualte with loose calls' this is madness at NL4
Like LOL_RAISE said you play these out the blinds by 3betting i.e bluffing/raising light but at NL4 there is ZERO need to do it lol
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : fold pre - yes ofc 98% of the time I fold here :S don't you start i know it's loose and spewy turn - i trust my read, all value river - i trust my read and i am not c/f read my previous post - from my perspectiive Posted by rancid
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : What worse hands can don call with on river? Posted by grantorino
i see your point, but i thought i could get more value out of the hand he called the turn with. If he calling turn with overpr then he going to call river with the same as turn virtually puts him deeper. The point is m8 my read was spot on and he hit basically runner runner - i was UL so... If he misses river then he folds right - maybe he does call Also If i shove river it looks mega big and so it's also a semi bluff and he may lay down a hand that beats me So overall there's no way on earth I can check river, for me it just looks mega weak and basically says "come and take this pot" big bet flop, big bet turn and check river - blahhhhhhhh - thats a bad story
well I doubt he ever calls river with an overpair, doubt you bluff much out either. I think its a c/f, if you think checking makes you look so weak he bluffs here(I doubt it) then c/c
I think you are both levelling yourselves a bit with how ye are reading each other for certain ranges here tbh
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : amen to that brother, now where's my ez money list :S Posted by rancid
Rancid i guess i need to appoligise seems like me posting this has got you a grilling. I will say i sat down on this table after Rancid in his defense there was a name on the table that matched my list when i sat down. not sure if they where still here when this happened i was 90% focused on my other table for reasons which my diary explains.
The reason why i left rancids name was purley because the hand was against a better regular and someone who i knew would put in put into the hand on the clinic anyways.
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Rancid i guess i need to appoligise seems like me posting this has got you a grilling. I will say i sat down on this table after Rancid in his defense there was a name on the table that matched my list when i sat down. not sure if they where still here when this happened i was 90% focused on my other table for reasons which my diary explains. The reason why i left rancids name was purley because the hand was against a better regular and someone who i knew would put in put into the hand on the clinic anyways. Posted by The_Don90
No problem Don, my play pre was loose and spewy and deserves to be looked at because if not then we never become better players
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so... How can i do more then 1. get the range correct 2. bet value against that range Posted by rancid
the thing is his range that gets to the river isnt the same as his river calling range. he should be folding all 1 pair hands on the river, thus turning your bet into a bluff, the overpairs that he is calling turn with should be like QQ+ with a club redraw, that has your bluffs beat (if you ever are) but also has some equity vs your made hands, when the club doesnt come in he should be dumping them all
if you think that he is never folding overpairs on the river, hardly ever has a stronger made hand on the turn because he hasnt raised at any point on a very wet board then you probably can vbet here. although i think he would play alot of 8x hands like this aswell
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : the thing is his range that gets to the river isnt the same as his river calling range. he should be folding all 1 pair hands on the river, thus turning your bet into a bluff, the overpairs that he is calling turn with should be like QQ+ with a club redraw, that has your bluffs beat (if you ever are) but also has some equity vs your made hands, when the club doesnt come in he should be dumping them all if you think that he is never folding overpairs on the river, hardly ever has a stronger made hand on the turn because he hasnt raised at any point on a very wet board then you probably can vbet here. although i think he would play alot of 8x hands like this aswell Posted by LOL_RAISE
Yeah indeed when he calls turn I was thinking over pr with a club.
When the club doesn’t come on the river, I thought that he may call anyway but not bluff pr+club if I check. So my river shove was 50% value 50% bluff. I felt this was my only option and maybe I could also fold out his very slim range if he was beating me.
I guess if no club on river he should dump all 1 prs leaving me with c/c or c/f depending on if I think he would bluff shove river.
So yeah I kinda seeing the sense in c/f or c/c as a better option
Overall if on the river we was a lot deeper then I probably would have c/c or c/f – essentially on the river he either has it or not
In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so... How can i do more then 1. get the range correct 2. bet value against that range i don't think i am levelling myself too much here, v another player who calls flop bet then i may widen there range to SD/FD's and play accordingly - do you think it's bad for me to assume he will not call the flop bet with a draw, like you say am I really levelling myself too much Posted by rancid
Just because he had an overpair this time does not mean you have his range correct, his range can obv be wider. I dont know what don does, but I would expect him to flat more than overpairs
If he thinks you only lead pot with strong hands I think he can call with strong draws, he should have decent implied odds ip (havent looked back at hand, so stack size may preclude this). Personally Id rather have a good draw when you lead that flop than have 99.
Also as lolraise says, even with range you give him I dont think you can vbet river, you are ahead of some of that range but its tiny as it has all nearly made a set or straight and he folds some of it anyway
Comments
OOP also makes it worse, IP on btn facing minraise I might think about it sat VERY deep but a 5x raise is a lot and you keep doing this in SB you are setting fire to money, at higher levels I often see the GOD (yes God not good lol) players (lolufold, LOL_RAISE, etc) 3bet with these hands as they can take it down pre or have a disguised hand on the flop and also betting lead so can cbet most flops.
Also as a general rule dont do what other people do at those levels. Everyone at nl20/30 has leaks and probably play way too many hands.
Yeah the turn bet looks a bit fishy by me as yeah maybe I am only getting called by a hand that’s beating me right?My perspective:
Pre - I got Don on a range of mid-high pr’s or two broad way cards
So I call loosely to maybe I can get his stack if the right flop comes down –
My flop - I bet flop slightly bigger than pot to get chips in against anyone with a draw/over pair,
When Don calls the flop donk bet I can rule out the draw, he is a decent player and would not pay that much to draw would he
. I think he would just fold or shove with a draw
Good or bad to think this? We are not greater than 100BB’s so a call with a draw here I don’t think he would do this – there are plenty of players at NL4 who would pay pt or > to draw so I am betting for value 100% while I am ahead
So when the turn fills the flush I am not bothered as I don’t think he is drawing–
I bet turn for value and to get him in deeper for the river shove or maybe he will shove on me as a bluff
I really expected to see a fold or semi bluff shove here
On the river I am c/c anyway as I have gone this far so I just shove
Please tell me if this is good or bad
However as u correctly said the flop bet screems stremnth to me at this level, howevere i think the alohol spoke a little. I was confident you didnt have clubs when u continued on turn so i felt i had a double draw to hit. The river hitting my set was lucky but clubs and 8s i felt were live too.
Like LOL_RAISE said you play these out the blinds by 3betting i.e bluffing/raising light but at NL4 there is ZERO need to do it lol
Don, prob fold flop, defo fold turn, even river call marginal imo
Rancid, fold pre, prob check turn, why on earth are you betting river?
The point is m8 my read was spot on and he hit basically runner runner - i was UL so...
If he misses river then he folds right - maybe he does call
Also If i shove river it looks mega big and so it's also a semi bluff and he may lay down a hand that beats me
So overall there's no way on earth I can check river, for me it just looks mega weak and basically says "come and take this pot" big bet flop, big bet turn and check river - blahhhhhhhh - thats a bad story
I think you are both levelling yourselves a bit with how ye are reading each other for certain ranges here tbh
yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so...
How can i do more then
1. get the range correct
2. bet value against that range
i don't think i am levelling myself too much here, v another player who calls flop bet then i may widen there range to SD/FD's and play accordingly -
do you think it's bad for me to assume he will not call the flop bet with a draw, like you say am I really levelling myself too much
The reason why i left rancids name was purley because the hand was against a better regular and someone who i knew would put in put into the hand on the clinic anyways.
if you think that he is never folding overpairs on the river, hardly ever has a stronger made hand on the turn because he hasnt raised at any point on a very wet board then you probably can vbet here. although i think he would play alot of 8x hands like this aswell
Yeah indeed when he calls turn I was thinking over pr with a club.
When the club doesn’t come on the river, I thought that he may call anyway but not bluff pr+club if I check. So my river shove was 50% value 50% bluff. I felt this was my only option and maybe I could also fold out his very slim range if he was beating me.
I guess if no club on river he should dump all 1 prs leaving me with c/c or c/f depending on if I think he would bluff shove river.
So yeah I kinda seeing the sense in c/f or c/c as a better option
Overall if on the river we was a lot deeper then I probably would have c/c or c/f – essentially on the river he either has it or not
If he thinks you only lead pot with strong hands I think he can call with strong draws, he should have decent implied odds ip (havent looked back at hand, so stack size may preclude this). Personally Id rather have a good draw when you lead that flop than have 99.
Also as lolraise says, even with range you give him I dont think you can vbet river, you are ahead of some of that range but its tiny as it has all nearly made a set or straight and he folds some of it anyway