Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?

Lambert180

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Lambert180	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.88
Spence86	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.16
	Your hole cards	10 10
elliam4401	Raise		£0.20	£0.26	£3.64
usoges24	Fold
golfman28	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£0.18	£0.44	£3.70
Spence86	Fold
Flop
		9 3 5
Lambert180	Bet		£0.64	£1.08	£3.06
elliam4401	Call		£0.64	£1.72	£3.00
Turn
		8
Lambert180	All-in		£3.06	£4.78	£0.00
elliam4401	All-in		£3.00	£7.78	£0.00
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		£0.06	£7.72	£0.06
Lambert180	Show	10 10
elliam4401	Show	Q Q
River
		4
elliam4401	Win	Pair of Queens	£7.14		£7.14

Lambert180

I know it's 4NL and I don't I've more than got the basics but I was 5-tabling for the first time so some decisions were slightly faster than I normally would make them but I'm just wondering if I overplayed the tens a bit.

debdobs_67

dunno my gd m8 , you tell me ?? )

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
debdobs_67	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£10.07
Bramhall21	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£5.73
	Your hole cards	10 10
KAZ62	Fold
jtm	Fold
chair_m	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£2.87
Doo1	Raise		£0.50	£0.75	£7.14
debdobs_67	Call		£0.45	£1.20	£9.62
Bramhall21	Fold
chair_m	Call		£0.40	£1.60	£2.47
Flop
		2 2 4
debdobs_67	Bet		£0.80	£2.40	£8.82
chair_m	Fold
Doo1	Raise		£1.70	£4.10	£5.44
debdobs_67	Call		£0.90	£5.00	£7.92
Turn
		5
debdobs_67	Check
Doo1	Bet		£3.75	£8.75	£1.69
debdobs_67	All-in		£7.92	£16.67	£0.00
Doo1	All-in		£1.69	£18.36	£0.00
debdobs_67	Unmatched bet		£2.48	£15.88	£2.48
debdobs_67	Show	10 10
Doo1	Show	A A
River
		4
Doo1	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 4s	£14.68		£14.68

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grantorino

c/c flop

Yes you completely overplayed your hand. The worst hand you get called by on turn is 9x, and there are more hands that beat you than 9x in his range

Why the big overbets? Hate them readless

percival09

this is played v.bad imo

i'm never leading out that flop, esp readless - you're folding out everything you're ahead of- i'm c/c 

the turn is the worst - you're rarely gonna be called by worse - if you can't handle 5 tables don't play 5 tables

grantorino

yours is pretty bad too debs

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

yours is pretty bad too debs
Posted by grantorino

Thnx mate , ya know spur of the mo thing , thought he was tryin to nick it , i believe him now tho , hey ho thats poker ))

DOHHHHHHH

I dunno at nl4 about the use of the donk bet, genuinely don't know......

To donk bet u would need reads, on what he opens with, how likely he is to raise ur donk bet as a bluff, float the flop, cbet his air etc etc etc.

All too complicated, at nl4 anyway.

I'd go with the pot control line as above, if I see him check behind at any point in the hand, I'd lead the next street. 

Lambert180

Well thanks for your frank replies...

At these levels you do get alot of passive players so if I check the flop and he checks behind am I not missing out on value from 9x hands?

But yeah I think the turn was the major mistake, can't really argue with that.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

Well thanks for your frank replies... At these levels you do get alot of passive players so if I check the flop and he checks behind am I not missing out on value from 9x hands? But yeah I think the turn was the major mistake, can't really argue with that.
Posted by Lambert180

Yes, but 

1) Other than Pocket 9s, how many 9x hands could he have.

2) How many 9x hands can he have, that he doesn't c bet?

Lambert180

Ok fair point. Definitely keep these thoughts in mind for when I flop boards like this with an overpair in future.

I replied to your PM by the way... have you checked it when drunk and forgot about it again?

huuuuume

OP - reraise pre flop

as played i think it is almost impossible to get away from the overpair at nl4 as im assuming stacking off with top pair is common.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

OP - reraise pre flop as played i think it is almost impossible to get away from the overpair at nl4 as im assuming stacking off with top pair is common.
Posted by huuuuume

I didn't re-raise pre because with 1010 I'm basically set-mining because too often flops will come when I don't hit my set and there's overcards and I'll just check fold. I don't see the point in taking any other line at this level.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

Well thanks for your frank replies... At these levels you do get alot of passive players so if I check the flop and he checks behind am I not missing out on value from 9x hands? But yeah I think the turn was the major mistake, can't really argue with that.
Posted by Lambert180

How many 9x hands does average 4NL open 5x utg? Of these how many do you think he checks behind, given he raised pre?

Dont like the donk, it allows him fold most worse hands and if he raises it sucks (although I assume you were happy getting it in?)

EDIT: Just see doh beat me to it

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair? : How many 9x hands does average 4NL open 5x utg? Of these how many do you think he checks behind, given he raised pre? Dont like the donk, it allows him fold most worse hands and if he raises it sucks (although I assume you were happy getting it in?) EDIT: Just see doh beat me to it
Posted by grantorino

Yeah Doh has pointed out the same points as you and unsurprisingly I was wrong lol... yes his range has very little in it that I'm beating. Rubbish players never make it 5x and I can't see a good player making it 5x with any 9 other than 99 so yeah.

Yeah on the flop, I'm happy getting it in.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

OP - reraise pre flop as played i think it is almost impossible to get away from the overpair at nl4 as im assuming stacking off with top pair is common.
Posted by huuuuume

reraising TT here not great readless at 4NL imo.

Also while it may be ok to stack off that doesnt mean you should stack off in a way that narrows the range of worse hands that can call almost as much as is possible

huuuuume

there is a lot more value to 10 10 than just a set mine so a reraise pre flop allows you to get value from weaker hands (unless villain is folding AJ type hands pre flop)

also, you havent played this in anyway which suggests you are set mining.  when you miss a set when you are set mining do you regularly lead flop and shove turn?

a reraise pre will allow you to have much more info and can held narrow the range of hands you put your opponent on.

in the hand posted re raising pre would have saved you money as it is not difficult to get away from 10 10 if villain reraises you here.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

there is a lot more value to 10 10 than just a set mine so a reraise pre flop allows you to get value from weaker hands (unless villain is folding AJ type hands pre flop) also, you havent played this in anyway which suggests you are set mining.  when you miss a set when you are set mining do you regularly lead flop and shove turn? a reraise pre will allow you to have much more info and can held narrow the range of hands you put your opponent on. in the hand posted re raising pre would have saved you money as it is not difficult to get away from 10 10 if villain reraises you here.
Posted by huuuuume

Do you play much 4NL? Personally I only like 1010 as a set mine because it's basically all about betting for maximum value at these levels and when an overcard comes (which it will do a very high % of the time) i have to check fold.

No I don't normally play like this on a set mine. A few seconds of lacking in discipline lead me to deviate from my normal game and get overattached to me having an overpair to the board. I disagree with re-raising TT pre because a very high % of the time, I'm just check/folding the flop and when I do manage to hit my 10, it's not hard to build a quick pot at these levels because people call off light.

The fact that raising would have saved me money in this one hand does not mean it's the most profitable way to play long term. Also, what if he flat calls with AK or AQ or JJ or AJ, what have I learnt?

huuuuume

at 4nl if he flats your reraise you have learnt he doesnt have JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK. this is good information to have and will make playing your hand a lot easier

i never play 4nl but surely people at this level are raising pre flop with some hands in the range of 22-99 and suited Ax type hands?????

dont they raise with suited connectors?

with the hand you have posted you seem to have undervalued your 10 10 pre flop then overvalued it post flop.

huuuuume

out of interest how would you play JJ in the same spot?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Was I right to ignore the possibilty of a bigger overpair?:

at 4nl if he flats your reraise you have learnt he doesnt have JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK. this is good information to have and will make playing your hand a lot easier i never play 4nl but surely people at this level are raising pre flop with some hands in the range of 22-99 and suited Ax type hands????? dont they raise with suited connectors? with the hand you have posted you seem to have undervalued your 10 10 pre flop then overvalued it post flop.
Posted by huuuuume

Well it really depends if it's a REG or not, but for most tables at 4NL the ratio is about 4/5fish to 1/2regs. Good regs at this level are raising only with premium hands and they're bringing it in for 5X min because everyone else is limping and min-raising with complete junk and I do mean complete junk. I recently did a big 3bet pre with AA against one guy and he re-shoved (when there was no hope of me folding stackwise) with K2 off. It's a goldmine really if you've got the time to grind away and can play ALOT of tables.

I just played this one hand really badly basically. I don't think I really undervalued it pre but I deffo overvalued it post.