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is there ever a time to fold kings pre!

pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
been playing about an hr, he hasnt stepped out of line in this time although has 3bet a few timestevemc112Small blind £0.15£0.15£61.28Ozzie08Big blind £0.30£0.45£27.75 Your hole cardsKK   pod1Raise £0.90£1.35£31.49Michael_83Raise £2.10£3.45£51.67VINEY73Fold    OldBobFold    stevemc112Fold    Ozzie08Fold    pod1Raise £4.80£8.25£26.69Michael_83Raise £9.90£18.15£41.77s (havnt seen cards mind)
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2011
    Why are you 4betting if you are considering folding now?
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    In cash, no there isn't.
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  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    i didnt say i was considering folding, what im saying is was this a case where i should of!!!
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    No, I don't think you can ever fold KK pre in a cash game when you're only 100BBs deep.
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  • jugglegeekjugglegeek Member Posts: 623
    edited September 2011
    No chance of ever folding kings pre flop. Most players would play AK, KK, or QQ in the same way. You are about 20% to win the pot even if he does have aces. If you think he does this with a worse hand 20% of the time then it's okay to call anyway. If he has aces and they hold then just reach into your bankroll and reload and be happy the next time you have aces and the other guy has kings.

    Didn't Dan Harrington say that if you fold kings pre-flop then you are thinking too much?
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  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    i didnt, he did, i got lucky!stevemc112Small blind £0.15£0.15£61.28Ozzie08Big blind £0.30£0.45£27.75 Your hole cardsKK   pod1Raise £0.90£1.35£31.49Michael_83Raise £2.10£3.45£51.67VINEY73Fold    OldBobFold    stevemc112Fold    Ozzie08Fold    pod1Raise £4.80£8.25£26.69Michael_83Raise £9.90£18.15£41.77pod1All-in £26.69£44.84£0.00Michael_83Call £20.39£65.23£21.38pod1ShowKK   Michael_83ShowAA   Flop  K6J   Turn  4   River  2   pod1WinThree Kings£63.43 £63.43PrevClose windowNext
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited September 2011
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash.  This 5bet size is deadly and positions are clear indicators.  I dont love it but I van live with a fold here.

    Cant just ignore signs as clear as these.

    I think sometimes we are too quick to drop the hammer in away from table analysis.  Look at the sizing and positions.  Unless the guy is an utter tard this 5bet should scream at you to be concerned.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited September 2011
    typed and posted during your update pod.  If only 3o seconds earlier :(
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash.  This 5bet size is deadly and positions are clear indicators.  I dont love it but I van live with a fold here. Cant just ignore signs as clear as these. I think sometimes we are too quick to drop the hammer in away from table analysis.  Look at the sizing and positions.  Unless the guy is an utter tard this 5bet should scream at you to be concerned.
    Posted by AMYBR
    was waiting for this :). There are prob some situations with specific reads where you can fold KK pre, think you prob need to be deeper also

    His 5bet size doesnt really matter he's never 5b/f. Unless pod is a tard he shouldnt be 4b/f  the 2nd nuts 100BB deep when hes rarely going to be flatted by a solid opponent.

    I agree its never a fistpump here with the positions, and we see AA a decent amount. But the guy has 3bet a lot and can prob show up with QQ,AK maybe even JJ sometimes. If he cant show up with these hands, 4betting is horrible
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  • leon621leon621 Member Posts: 266
    edited September 2011
    i think i remember one of your own posts a few months ago maybe i think it was titled 'its hard to fold kings but.....'. this was about someone holding kings when you believe you are clearly showing yor aces. I too think with the right reads KK can be folded in cash.
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash. 
    Posted by AMYBR
    nah honestly its nearly impossible to fold in that spot, even if oppo is a nit! 1 because its a 6 max game and 2 its a cash game and 3 because you have kings;).

    i can honestly say i have been in this spot a lot! and the times your all in pre flop v AK QQ etc far outweighs the times i have been crushed by AA. 
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited September 2011
    I agree in the main grantorino.  But equally if we are just going to ignore all that our experience and knowledge tells us what is the point?  When opponent 5 bets this size and from these positions he is very rarely betting AKQQJJ.  Its an unpleaseant spot.

    We are talking of specific situations here.  We have significant information based on pos and bet sizes.  We cant simply be cavalier and say he does it with worse.

    Give you 10/1 odds Pod1 was hugely unsurprised to be snapped seeing A's.  what do we expect to see opponent to turn over here?

    Am not saying its easy or standard.  Am not saying I fold in hand online.  If positions are different or bet sizes are stronger we are always getting it in.  But look at the action.  What do we expect to see here?

    Guy has 3 bet a few times, not a lot.  He 5bets, not 4 bets.

    I'm not saying its an easy spot.  In hand its going to be awful given short decision time.  But looking at it with detachment and plenty of time, its clear we have a lot of information.
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  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    **** ell leon,good memory it was over a yr ago that one. and  it went through my head when this went down.it screamed it,but like whoami said you come up against ak a lot of times. ps that was in my impetus days , i try and hold my tongue a bit more now!
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited September 2011
    If I ran like you Pod I would never fold a hand, ever. 
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  • leon621leon621 Member Posts: 266
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    **** ell leon,good memory it was over a yr ago that one. and  it went through my head when this went down.it screamed it,but like whoami said you come up against ak a lot of times. ps that was in my impetus days , i try and hold my tongue a bit more now!
    Posted by pod1
    in all fairness i do tend to remember your posts, but thats a compliment as the best peices of advice i think i have received of this site has come from you. I dont think that post was a year ago though
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  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    tnx leon,orthodox im not but i enjoy my poker and if i can help people with my limited knowledge i will.ps are you sure its not a year,**** feels like it!
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    We think about folding Kings pre at NL30, Jesus.....
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  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    dude,i put in previous post i WAS NOT thinking about folding kks pre,my point was SHOULD i have thought about folding kings pre? big difference bud.
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  • Batkin88Batkin88 Member Posts: 1,682
    edited September 2011

    In a tournament early yes or if your huge in chips! In cash you would need very specific reads, however every single player who have commented on this when the player comes back over the top you all know he is holding aces here .. come on admit it. Queens he shoves AK he folds calls or shoves only hand raisng is AA, But yet everyone calls

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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited September 2011
    Its been said already pod mate but i will say it again , YES ya can fold kings pre BUT ya would have to be alot lot deeper and have a good read of the oppo
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