I dont think you always have to have hands with better blockers but as you are usually making a kind of educated guess when you do this, you may as well do it when your hand is a little more sutiable. I understand why you 4b here, and I dont mind it, but you usually seem to have unusual hands for doing it with when you post these type of hands here (could be advertising ). Obv the situation is important also.
I would think your cards are more important when you 3bet bluff than 4bet bluff (not sure though) as you are much more likely to be flatted, and his range is usally less polarised.
Also a K blocks significantly more value hands than a J.
this is way above my level if thinking, but i need to ask, if we are 3/4bet bluffing can we assume that the oppenent has a half decent hand to come along with you. would this not involve a king on many occasions kk ak, so would you 4 bet bluffing with a king get you into more trouble than a jack(if one comes down) like i say this is above my pay grade. or is this range merging. please help as i would like to get to grips with this level of thinking.
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : Aint it weird how diff players find levels lower TOUGHER than levels higher , ive just started playin nl20 and im findin it better so far than nl10 , strange ) Posted by debdobs_67
this is way above my level if thinking, but i need to ask, if we are 3/4bet bluffing can we assume that the oppenent has a half decent hand to come along with you. would this not involve a king on many occasions kk ak, so would you 4 bet bluffing with a king get you into more trouble than a jack(if one comes down) like i say this is above my pay grade. or is this range merging. please help as i would like to get to grips with this level of thinking. Posted by pod1
Well this is way above my level also but I'd imagine that's not the case, because (this is just my thinking and I don't play anywhere near this level so I could be completely wrong) but when you're 3/4bet bluffing with say K4, you're not doing it to try and hit a king and then think you're good. You're doing it to represent massive strength and continue to do it throughout the hand if need be to make better hands fold. Thus it doesnt really matter, obviously if they have KK and a K comes out, you're not getting him to fold but that's pretty unlikely, especially if you have a K yourself.
As the villain here posts in the clinic, i wonder if he/she might see this, remember it, and advise us why they flat called the four bet, and the reason for this. (this is an odd flat with junk imo, k3s, when they are only 110bbs deep.) I guess they had a plan, which went wrong when dohhhhhh connected with the board. But If i thought dohhhhhh was at it (he always is:), i would five bet jam pre!!
Another question, What would he/she do preflop in this situation if they had a monster premium hand?
On this point of hand selection if you are going to make a 4-bet bluff. Should you be doing it with total junk hands such as 74 or 42? rather than hands with picture cards since you are less likely to be dominated by your opponent's range.
I've never even considered a 4-bet bluff at the level I'm currently playing (NL4) since most 4-bets at this level are all in anyway. But I was just wondering what is considered more profitable.
If you do it with 74 then you are almost certain that the opponent doesn't have a seven in their hand. However your opponent could more likely have a jack.
Usually when we 4bet bluff we have opened pre, so we usually dont have complete muck
We are rarely getting flatted (assuming 100bb deep against reggy villain)so our hand value or being dominated doesnt really matter, so I prefer have blockers to his likely shoving range
3bet bluffing is slightly different as its much more likely we get flatted, but hands like Axs, Kxs can have decent equity on some boards, as well as blockers to villains continuing range, whereas theres not many boards we like with 74o when villain flats a 3bet.
the point of blockers is because we reduce the combinations of their value range.
say we hold 74 we 4b as a bluff and villain is going to 5b jam with QQ+,AK thats 34 combos. (6 per pocket pair, 16 for AK)
say we hold KQ and we use this to 4b as a bluff, villains 5b jam range is the same QQ+,AK. now we have K&Q in our hand there are 3xQQ 3xKK 6xAA 12xAK for total of 24combos.
so when we have 74 as opposed to KQ villain is going to have almost 50% more value hands in his range
But I think the point is, when you're playing say K4, you're not playing to hit TP so you shouldn't hit a K and then be betting down for value. So surely it doesn't matter if your connects or not, but if say KQ is needed to have a straight, then you holding a K obviously reduces the chance he has it, so you can represent it.
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : How would you say it's better, more fish ? Posted by Dudeskin8
Well keep it between me , you and now the entire forum ) but bluffs seem to be gettin through alot easier , dunno why , maybe just been vs weakish players , time will tell i spose
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : Well keep it between me , you and now the entire forum ) but bluffs seem to be gettin through alot easier , dunno why , maybe just been vs weakish players , time will tell i spose Posted by debdobs_67
So people are less loose and hence you don't get max value when you hit, sounds bad to me lolz.
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : So people are less loose and hence you don't get max value when you hit, sounds bad to me lolz. Posted by Dudeskin8
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : Villains surely don't know when you're bluffing or not? Hence they just fold more overall which I'd say is pretty bad if you wanna get value. Posted by Dudeskin8
Yeah but it works both ways , winnin alot of pots on flop with air cant be a bad thing surely ?? but this is prob just down to who's been on the table at the time , obv i will meet plenty of players who will put up far greater resistance , as i said time will tell
In Response to Re: 100nl, tp after 4b bluff in position. : I gurantee they dont have AA Posted by YOUNG_GUN
He should and will be flatting with AA here sometimes IMO. Against JJ I love flatting with aces OOP and check raising the bet we know, he knows, you know, the old lady playing 50p blackjack knows is coming.
Comments
I may be wrong on some of this, but anyway
). Obv the situation is important also.
I dont think you always have to have hands with better blockers but as you are usually making a kind of educated guess when you do this, you may as well do it when your hand is a little more sutiable. I understand why you 4b here, and I dont mind it, but you usually seem to have unusual hands for doing it with when you post these type of hands here (could be advertising
I would think your cards are more important when you 3bet bluff than 4bet bluff (not sure though) as you are much more likely to be flatted, and his range is usally less polarised.
Also a K blocks significantly more value hands than a J.
As the villain here posts in the clinic, i wonder if he/she might see this, remember it, and advise us why they flat called the four bet, and the reason for this. (this is an odd flat with junk imo, k3s, when they are only 110bbs deep.) I guess they had a plan, which went wrong when dohhhhhh connected with the board. But If i thought dohhhhhh was at it (he always is:), i would five bet jam pre!!
Another question, What would he/she do preflop in this situation if they had a monster premium hand?
I've never even considered a 4-bet bluff at the level I'm currently playing (NL4) since most 4-bets at this level are all in anyway. But I was just wondering what is considered more profitable.
If you do it with 74 then you are almost certain that the opponent doesn't have a seven in their hand. However your opponent could more likely have a jack.
We are rarely getting flatted (assuming 100bb deep against reggy villain)so our hand value or being dominated doesnt really matter, so I prefer have blockers to his likely shoving range
3bet bluffing is slightly different as its much more likely we get flatted, but hands like Axs, Kxs can have decent equity on some boards, as well as blockers to villains continuing range, whereas theres not many boards we like with 74o when villain flats a 3bet.
say we hold 74 we 4b as a bluff and villain is going to 5b jam with QQ+,AK thats 34 combos. (6 per pocket pair, 16 for AK)
say we hold KQ and we use this to 4b as a bluff, villains 5b jam range is the same QQ+,AK. now we have K&Q in our hand there are 3xQQ 3xKK 6xAA 12xAK for total of 24combos.
so when we have 74 as opposed to KQ villain is going to have almost 50% more value hands in his range