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DYM BUBBLE - fold or call

2

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  • bahhbahh Member Posts: 72
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    Can't call quick enough ! Lol @ ppl thinking he does anything but shove with AQ here.  It's Ace King mannnnnnnnn
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    +1
  • jimifloydjimifloyd Member Posts: 148
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : Nice, thought so :) BTW what program is that, and is there a free trial?
    Posted by Poker_Fail
    http://www.sngwiz.com/tiki/Download
  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/rancidh.jpg/
    Posted by jimifloyd
    wish i understood that!
  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC Member Posts: 186
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : wish i understood that!
    Posted by SHANXTA
    http://www.sngwiz.com/tiki/tiki-index.php

    "

    How Does It Work?

    The SitNGo Wizard reads your tournament hand history and runs an analysis of each hand. The analysis compares the equity you would have if you fold pre-flop to the equity you would have if you push all-in pre-flop. Equity is your share of the prize pool at any point in the tournament. It is based on number of opponents, the size of each player’s stack, and the tournament prize structure.

    The software computes the equity of every possible outcome of the hand. It combines the equity of each outcome with the probability of each outcome to come up with the total equity. It would take you days to do these calculations by hand, but the SitNGo Wizard computes them in a fraction of a second."
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : http://www.sngwiz.com/tiki/Download
    Posted by jimifloyd
    Thanks
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    Can't call quick enough ! Lol @ ppl thinking he does anything but shove with AQ here.  It's Ace King mannnnnnnnn
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    But Shanxta's a very good reg, he has the same stack as everyine else, so knows he is not in danger yet, Is he really doing this with much more than AK AQ AJ and pocket pairs?
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited October 2011

    If he knows that ppl are "supposed" to fold AK here I'd suggest he'd be doing it even wider than that!!!

    He's gonna get called almost never.
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    If he knows that ppl are " supposed " to fold AK here I'd suggest he'd be doing it even wider than that!!! He's gonna get called almost never.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Indeed, I ain't no DYM expert but if all stacks are 10 bb I have to call here with AK.
    I thought he could have mid pr but also a worse ace playing it to fold out mid prs,
    It is also the case that he can do this with a wider range of hands because people are only calling with AA/KK in this dynamic.

    And I just can't fo;d AK with 10 bigs and equal stacks  ) Prefer to shove but hey are we going to get a better hand before we blind out.





  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : But Shanxta's a very good reg, he has the same stack as everyine else, so knows he is not in danger yet, Is he really doing this with much more than AK AQ AJ and pocket pairs?
    Posted by Poker_Fail
    at this was a micro dym AJ and small pairs r deff just open folded
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : at this was a micro dym AJ and small pairs r deff just open folded
    Posted by SHANXTA
    I knd of thought so, but didn't want to be told I was putting your range too tight and "exxagerating"

    So agasinst YOU and lots of other regs would you agree this is a fold?

    great stats BTW.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : Indeed, I ain't no DYM expert but if all stacks are 10 bb I have to call here with AK. I thought he could have mid pr but also a worse ace playing it to fold out mid prs, It is also the case that he can do this with a wider range of hands because people are only calling with AA/KK in this dynamic. And I just can't fo;d AK with 10 bigs and equal stacks  ) Prefer to shove but hey are we going to get a better hand before we blind out.
    Posted by rancid
    That's the whole point though, you don't NEED to call, let someone else do it. As you say, it could be a mid-pair... so do you wanna take a race when you're a slight dog for your tourney life when the guy next to you just folded 94off and is gonna cash when one of you loses?

    If he's taking advantage then so be it, he got there first. Next hand you can take advantage of that very same dynamic and you can be sure that Shanxta won't be calling a shove for his all-in unless he has a monster (I'm not including AK in Shanxta's range to call an all-in for his tourney life on the bubble when he's in NO danger). He's a good player and KNOWS in that situation, almost 100% of the time, he either HAS to hit, or has to dodge 2 cards, why would he take that unnecessary risk?
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : That's the whole point though, you don't NEED to call, let someone else do it. As you say, it could be a mid-pair... so do you wanna take a race when you're a slight dog for your tourney life when the guy next to you just folded 94off and is gonna cash when one of you loses? If he's taking advantage then so be it, he got there first. Next hand you can take advantage of that very same dynamic and you can be sure that Shanxta won't be calling a shove for his all-in unless he has a monster (I'm not including AK in Shanxta's range to call an all-in for his tourney life on the bubble when he's in NO danger). He's a good player and KNOWS in that situation, almost 100% of the time, he either HAS to hit, or has to dodge 2 cards, why would he take that unnecessary risk?
    Posted by Lambert180
    just fold everything on the bubble,  especially aces..

    also dont shove anything either.. its far too risky to even think about moving a chip...

    in fact, just sit there, look pretty, and fold down to 1/2 a big blind. Then quadruple up direwolf style and cash in every game...

    Alternativly we can get our money in with a nice premium hand like AK and be happy that we are trying to win money than avoid losing it.  Im with Dohhhhhh and Rancid on this one.






  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited October 2011
    I would think it depends a lot on how other 2 villains play. If they are standard bad low stakes villains I would think villains range is tight, hence fold (we prob have enough cEV to call, but its prob -£EV) . If they are decent regs villains range should be much wider, there may be a reason to call

    I would think this is a pretty standard fold in a dym if you run an icm calc and give villain a tight range, especially if other 2 players are likely to make mistakes. btw that sngwiz calc shown depends completely on range entered for villain

    Again I have never really played dyms or studied strat for them so make of that what you will
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : just fold everything on the bubble,  especially aces.. also dont shove anything either.. its far too risky to even think about moving a chip... in fact, just sit there, look pretty, and fold down to 1/2 a big blind. Then quadruple up direwolf style and cash in every game... Alternativly we can get our money in with a nice premium hand like AK and be happy that we are trying to win money than avoid losing it.  Im with Dohhhhhh and Rancid on this one.
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    Now that is just exaggerating :P

    The thing is though, in this situation and against SHANXTA it isn't a profitable call, you need 55% to win and you are not gonna be a 55% fav against his range in this situation
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : Now that is just exaggerating :P The thing is though, in this situation and against SHANXTA it isn't a profitable call, you need 55% to win and you are not gonna be a 55% fav against his range in this situation
    Posted by Poker_Fail
    where is that 55% figure coming from? (not saying its wrong, just have no idea how you got it)
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    I would think it depends a lot on how other 2 villains play. If they are standard bad low stakes villains I would think villains range is tight, hence fold (we prob have enough cEV to call, but its prob -£EV) . If they are decent regs villains range should be much wider, there may be a reason to call I would think this is a pretty standard fold in a dym if you run an icm calc and give villain a tight range, especially if other 2 players are likely to make mistakes. btw that sngwiz calc shown depends completely on range entered for villain Again I have never really played dyms or studied strat for them so make of that what you will
    Posted by grantorino
    It's another slant on a DYM strategy where if villains are bad low stakes then you should by all accounts tighten your shoving range as the possibility of being called is much higher. Maybe if this was at a higher stake and versus the same villain  then oppo's shoving range may include AQ/AJ type hands. 
    Should we be exploiting low stake DYM players by tightening our range as they are more likely going to be getting it in or calling with worse. When facing DYM Regulars at low stakes do we loosen our range if we know there tightening there range - i know he knows....So of I am shoving into a reg from the sb for example on the bubble this has to be +ev as he is only calling with three hands - you could in theory get regs to lay down better as they are just never calling.




  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : where is that 55% figure coming from? (not saying its wrong, just have no idea how you got it)
    Posted by grantorino
    Winning 55% of you're DYMs (in the £3.30s or above, below that the rake is a higher %) is break even as it just covers the rake.

    I'll use the £5.50s as an example, if you win you get £10. If you win 55% of your games you'll get £5.50 return on average, which is the same as the buyin, so break-even.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call : Winning 55% of you're DYMs (in the £3.30s or above, below that the rake is a higher %) is break even as it just covers the rake. I'll use the £5.50s as an example, if you win you get £10. If you win 55% of your games you'll get £5.50 return on average, which is the same as the buyin, so break-even.
    Posted by Poker_Fail
    I would think you need to look at the £EV of calling here v the £EV of folding, not the fact we need to win 55% of games
  • jimifloydjimifloyd Member Posts: 148
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM BUBBLE - fold or call:
    I would think it depends a lot on how other 2 villains play. If they are standard bad low stakes villains I would think villains range is tight, hence fold (we prob have enough cEV to call, but its prob -£EV) . If they are decent regs villains range should be much wider, there may be a reason to call I would think this is a pretty standard fold in a dym if you run an icm calc and give villain a tight range, especially if other 2 players are likely to make mistakes. btw that sngwiz calc shown depends completely on range entered for villain Again I have never really played dyms or studied strat for them so make of that what you will
    Posted by grantorino
    Just wanted to end it with the pic,easy fold.
    I adjusted shanxtas shoving range to 100 % of hands and its still a fold for grantorino.

    Simple maths tells u its a fold i aint going in to dym strat.

    But just a simple eg. The more people the shove has to get through the tighter the range and also the higher the % chance of being called.So the call is not just shanxtas hand but also a % chance of being called by 1 of the remaining 2 of 4 players.

    By folding u still have a 75% chance of cashing 3 paid from 4 players=75%
    AK vs a tightish range ,then ur a 51+% fav.


    There are spots when u have to call cause you are 1 of the 2 shortest stacks that are way behind but this is not 1 of them.
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/28355966.jpg/


    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/capture2uc.jpg
  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited October 2011
    I think this is a comfortable enough fold at this stage of the game and it looks like Wiz confirms this. I'd usually call if i had 1800 chips or less.
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