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NL8, QQ and two all ins

JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
edited November 2011 in The Poker Clinic

Readless on oppos. Is my 4 bet big enough and is it profitable to call here?

JackoG9 Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £7.27
Ch3ndy Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £9.33
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
   
blindbob Raise  £0.16 £0.28 £6.24
1875blue Raise  £0.40 £0.68 £6.48
JackoG9 Raise  £1.28 £1.96 £5.99
Ch3ndy Fold     
blindbob All-in  £6.24 £8.20 £0.00
1875blue All-in  £6.48 £14.68 £0.00
JackoG9 ??
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Comments

  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    Depends on standard at table, Tis sat night :p

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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited November 2011
    At this level vs unknowns i sigh call and make notes whatever the outcome
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  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited November 2011
    At NL8 i'm deffo calling
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    blindbob must have AA/KK - still calling though )
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  • RandomRivRandomRiv Member Posts: 90
    edited November 2011
    Think I'm booting the cat and folding.
    Like Idonkcallu said you may be up against AK AK but it is more likely your up again at least one overpair. Also as said take notes on both hands for the future. Like the 4-bet you made pre flop.
    Out of interest what did they both have and did you lay down?
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011

    Thanks for the comments.
    As Amybr said, the fact that it was Saturday night - and there was loads of loose play - almost made me call, but I felt both all ins after a 4 bet meant one of them had to be AA / KK, so decided to fold. Fact I was readless influenced the decision.
    Didn't kick the cat RandomRiv but gave the mouse a slam.

    JackoG9 Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £7.27
    Ch3ndy Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £9.33
     Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
    		   
    blindbob Raise  £0.16 £0.28 £6.24
    1875blue Raise  £0.40 £0.68 £6.48
    JackoG9 Raise  £1.28 £1.96 £5.99
    Ch3ndy Fold     
    blindbob All-in  £6.24 £8.20 £0.00
    1875blue All-in  £6.48 £14.68 £0.00
    JackoG9 Fold     
    1875blue Unmatched bet  £0.48 £14.20 £0.48
    blindbob Show
    • K
    • A
    		   
    1875blue Show
    • K
    • K
    		   
    Flop
      
    • J
    • 2
    • 8
    		   
    Turn
      
    • 3
    		   
    River
      
    • A
    		   
    blindbob Win Pair of Aces £13.13  £13.13
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  • RandomRivRandomRiv Member Posts: 90
    edited November 2011

    I think good fold reguardless of what they had.
    But the fact that 1 did have an over pair and you correctly layed it down makes it feel an even better fold. Great feeling when you do that.
    If this was 2 way though im calling

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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    not ever folding when you cold 4bet them first, especially not even fullstacked. What did you hope would happen?
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    I think good fold reguardless of what they had. But the fact that 1 did have an over pair and you correctly layed it down makes it feel an even better fold. Great feeling when you do that. If this was 2 way though im calling
    Posted by RandomRiv
    Totally agree. I think if I'd seen any really loose play from either I might've made the call but as it was knew I had to lay it down. Wasn't easy but seeing result made me feel better!
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    not ever folding when you cold 4bet them first, especially not even fullstacked. What did you hope would happen?
    Posted by grantorino
    Mandatory 4 bet here with QQ to get one to fold but after 5 and 6 bets all in - 80bb deep - surely you have to re-assess. Can't put either on AA / KK after initial raise and 3 bet but you can after 5/6 bets. Plus I've only committed 1/6 of my stack.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins : Mandatory 4 bet here with QQ to get one to fold but after 5 and 6 bets all in - 80bb deep - surely you have to re-assess. Can't put either on AA / KK after initial raise and 3 bet but you can after 5/6 bets. Plus I've only committed 1/6 of my stack.
    Posted by JackoG9
    What hands do you want to fold?

    Since you dont get flatted often here and you want action all you really dont like is the call of the 5bet. Does the range the 3bettor shoves over your cold 4bet when utg folds really change that much from that which calls when utg shoves? Or are you intending folding if utg shoves and bettor calls?
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins : What hands do you want to fold? Since you dont get flatted often here and you want action all you really dont like is the call of the 5bet. Does the range the 3bettor shoves over your cold 4bet when utg folds really change that much from that which calls when utg shoves? Or are you intending folding if utg shoves and bettor calls?
    Posted by grantorino
    I don't want to go up against a raiser AND a 3 bettor with QQ, I definitely can't fold, but I can reassess after this action.
    By your logic, you're happy when you raise UTG with AA and all five oppos call as they all have weaker holdings. If you can't make a reasoned decision that an oppo has AA / KK here, then when can you? There's not even a justification of calling on the grounds that I'm pot committed.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited November 2011
    Im not folding here readless @ nl8 

    good fold but i honestly think longterm -ev unless u have solid reads cant really cold 4bet fold
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    Im not folding here readless @ nl8  good fold but i honestly think longterm -ev unless u have solid reads cant really cold 4bet fold
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    I really don't get why you can't cold 4 bet fold? In what instance can you put someone on AA or KK?
    I get it that bad / loose play is more prevalent at NL8, but if someone has these hands, then the betting is still going to go like this, even at these levels. Possibly more often as fewer players are capable of calling to disguise strength of their hand.
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
    Im not folding here readless @ nl8  good fold but i honestly think longterm -ev unless u have solid reads cant really cold 4bet fold
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    +1 , exactly what i stated in my 1st post , it surely HAS to be -ev longterm vs randoms.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    If you 4 bet folding then your bluffing ) You can never be bluffing with QQ plus your not deep enough to fold
    May aswell flat and take a flop if your 4 bet folding to a 5 bet shove

    Anyway good fold ) So easily could have been JJ & AK

    IMO i don't think it's +ev long term to be making these folds





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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited November 2011
    Yep once you 4bet you HAVE to snap the all ins, tbh I've seen people go pretty mental down here with a lot worse than AA/KK so I can't imagine it being the right call all the time.
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  • RandomRivRandomRiv Member Posts: 90
    edited November 2011
     I can't see how folding here is -ev. It's not heads up. 1 player has 5bet which if he has the guts and thinks your at it fair enough but you can't bluff with a call. There is another player calling a 5bet!!!! how is calling with QQ here +ev.
    I haven't seen this play at these stakes that often where one DOESN'T at least have an overpair.
    If the cards are turned face up are you all still calling? Cos here the cards are turned face up as much as they ever will be
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  • JackoG9JackoG9 Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2011
    +1 to the above.

    So those who're saying you NEVER 4 bet fold here, hypothetically, what wd you do if UTG raises, UTG+1 3 bets, I 4 bet with QQ and everyone else behind goes all in. Do I call there? Obviously not.
    It's not like I've committed half my stack or even close. Saying you must call here is way too rigid IMHO ...
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited November 2011
    with stacksizes i would defo 4 bet call them both, unless i have some reads telling me otherwise. ppl will get in lighter then QQ here very likely they have AKhere too. with ur stack auto stack of here if u and 1 of others are deeper then can fold

    Its only a must call as u have no history if u think the 2nd person who calls the 5 bet is solid then easy fold 


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