In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins : I don't want to go up against a raiser AND a 3 bettor with QQ, I definitely can't fold, but I can reassess after this action. By your logic, you're happy when you raise UTG with AA and all five oppos call as they all have weaker holdings. If you can't make a reasoned decision that an oppo has AA / KK here, then when can you? There's not even a justification of calling on the grounds that I'm pot committed. Posted by JackoG9
My logic has nothing to do with being called by everyone when I open AA as 1) you are unlikely to be flatted 2) if I could get called by everyone with AA and have an SPR like you would if your 4bet is called in 2 places I would be really happy. Im not going to get into how many callers with AA again, but hypothetically if you played really well postflop you prob want lots of them. As for your everyone behind goes all in, its different because you havent specifically raised against their raising ranges.
If you should be folding here you need to give serious consideration as to whether your 4bet was the right move, because raise/folding the 3rd nuts when being flatted is unlikely is tough to justify. No way you should be4betting here imo unless you are prepared to get it in against the guy who 3bet, it just makes no sense. It sounds like you were willing to get it in v utg if 3bettor folded, so does utg shoving change utg+1 shoving range that much at 8NL? Questionable I would say
You say you definitely cant fold to the 3bet, tbh it doesnt seem out of the question to me, but yeah dont think I fold too often. You say you cant flat, why on earth not (certainly sounds better than a mandatory 4bet to make a worse hand fold to me)? Why is 4b/f a better line than flatcalling?
Also if you give both villains a range of AK,KK+ its a call. If you can be sure one has KK+ its a fold, but that has to put a question mark over whether the 4bet was a good idea
I think given bet sizing that 4 betting was necessary here, note the 3bet was only 5 big blinds, given that his 4 bet was to a normal 3 bet size then I think we can still fold if we are 5 bet because we are almost exclusively vs AA/KK then.
Note that I am of the belief that players will flat 4 bets worse then QQ at NL8.
Yep once you 4bet you HAVE to snap the all ins, tbh I've seen people go pretty mental down here with a lot worse than AA/KK so I can't imagine it being the right call all the time. Posted by Dudeskin8
I agree after a 4 bet its a snap call but!!! thats heads up we have 2 all in's here and if one of them has AK which we have to think is at least 1 hand so against 1 random hand and AK with QQ we are about a 45% dog the fold is correct!
Yep once you 4bet you HAVE to snap the all ins, tbh I've seen people go pretty mental down here with a lot worse than AA/KK so I can't imagine it being the right call all the time. Posted by Dudeskin8
I play above this level BUT also at this level , look its stack sizes as much as anything else + we've already 4bet with our QQ , and yes the play is a bit better but i still see plenty of times in spots like this where oppos still show AK , AQ , JJ 10 10 and sometimes even less.
I agree that he made the correct fold as we got to see the oppo's hands BUT longterm , at this level with the stacks as they were you cannot keep on 4bet folding with QQ.
This play is excellent, i love the cold 4 bet, its a good amount and its cost u £1.28 to get the information u needed to fold. if one does call it can cause problems as u wont know where u are on the flop. good read and a good fold imo. Posted by Bobsicool3
If your betting for information, then the info you get back is never good.
Either worse has folded or better will call or raise
Furthermore, it opens you up to be bluffed.
plus you could just flat and set mine if your 4 bet folding as said above
This play is excellent, i love the cold 4 bet, its a good amount and its cost u £1.28 to get the information u needed to fold. if one does call it can cause problems as u wont know where u are on the flop. good read and a good fold imo. Posted by Bobsicool3
Bob its NOT excellent at this level with these stacks , its actually awful and HAS to be -ev longterm
Comments
If you should be folding here you need to give serious consideration as to whether your 4bet was the right move, because raise/folding the 3rd nuts when being flatted is unlikely is tough to justify. No way you should be4betting here imo unless you are prepared to get it in against the guy who 3bet, it just makes no sense. It sounds like you were willing to get it in v utg if 3bettor folded, so does utg shoving change utg+1 shoving range that much at 8NL? Questionable I would say
You say you definitely cant fold to the 3bet, tbh it doesnt seem out of the question to me, but yeah dont think I fold too often. You say you cant flat, why on earth not (certainly sounds better than a mandatory 4bet to make a worse hand fold to me)? Why is 4b/f a better line than flatcalling?
Also if you give both villains a range of AK,KK+ its a call. If you can be sure one has KK+ its a fold, but that has to put a question mark over whether the 4bet was a good idea
I think given bet sizing that 4 betting was necessary here, note the 3bet was only 5 big blinds, given that his 4 bet was to a normal 3 bet size then I think we can still fold if we are 5 bet because we are almost exclusively vs AA/KK then.
Note that I am of the belief that players will flat 4 bets worse then QQ at NL8.
In Response to Re: NL8, QQ and two all ins:
At these stakes would you call here?
If yes
Do you play these stakes or are you remembering this stake from the past when you played them?
I think your under estimating the level of play at the beginners tables. 2 years ago you could call this with 88 and it will be profitable. Not today!
I agree that he made the correct fold as we got to see the oppo's hands BUT longterm , at this level with the stacks as they were you cannot keep on 4bet folding with QQ.
if one does call it can cause problems as u wont know where u are on the flop.
good read and a good fold imo.
If you are folding to their jams you may as well flat pre and check fold any flop that doesn't have a Queen....
Fwiw at this level I'd 4b call off - but don't mind flatting pre and getting it in on that flop either.
If your betting for information, then the info you get back is never good.
Either worse has folded or better will call or raise
Furthermore, it opens you up to be bluffed.
plus you could just flat and set mine if your 4 bet folding as said above