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turn spot in 3b pot

ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
edited February 2012 in The Poker Clinic
villain is the kind of reg you wouldn't be overly happy getting AK/QQ in against 100bbs deep. he'd view me as aggro/spewy and i'd been 3betting him a lot so i think he calls pre lighter than he normally would. he's seen me 2barrel / 3barrel bluff him in 3b pots in the past but that was quite a while ago and i'm not sure that would come into his thinking.

i don't think he has a draw here very much at all, because if he has was going to semi-bluff he'd be much more likely to do that on the flop.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
yb Small blind   £0.50 £0.50 £118.75
BritHome Big blind   £1.00 £1.50 £96.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • A
     
daddysteve Fold        
villain
Raise   £3.00 £4.50 £117.67
VintageDP Fold        
BobW Fold        
yb Raise   £10.50 £15.00 £108.25
BritHome Fold        
villain Call   £8.00 £23.00 £109.67
Flop
   
  • J
  • J
  • 9
     
yb Bet   £13.00 £36.00 £95.25
villain Call   £13.00 £49.00 £96.67
Turn
   
  • 2
     
yb Bet   £27.00 £76.00 £68.25
villain All-in   £96.67 £172.67 £0.00
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Comments

  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited February 2012
    If he's the sort of villian you wouldn't really like getting AK/QQ in pre, he must be tight so surely he has to have a jack?
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited February 2012
    if he's never bluffing in this spot then i would probably fold. 

    Can he ever have KK here too or what range of hands are we beating that he would shove turn rather then river? 

    surely plenty of Ks in his range? but doubt its K9 surely he would jus fold? 

    its very player dependent based on ur reads i probably fold, he can have KJ/QJ/J10 alot here
  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited February 2012
    Not many J combos the villain could have aj is just mathematically unlikely, a frustrated j10? 

    You have less behind than what's in the pot, making his shove tricky, Does he think he has fold equity? or does he know you well enough that your rarely double-barreling a brick and likely never folding, edit: looks like you'r setting up the pot to get it in on the river, thinking about it, why would he shove; seem's unnecessary(if he wants a call).

    Never the less, this hand is a head-ache, v some oppo i play with i would snap this off, . . . all comes down to reads i guess.

    To me he looks strong, why shove the brick on the turn?
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited February 2012
    tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad.

    fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river
  • edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad. fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    You've created a paradox, because by saying shoving any hand is bad in this spot, you suggest that combo draws have better fold equity because the line looks so strong, and so shoving draws in this spot is actually good.


  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited February 2012
    Can't see how you happily fold knowing oppo has a J, 9's or 2's


    gotta say it's got combo draw all over it but you never know unless you call )
    You can't fold anyway :()

  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited February 2012
    thanks for the replies.

    like i said i really don't think he'd play a combo draw this way, i think he'd either raise flop, or call flop call turn. coxy i see what you're saying, but i doubt the villain would ever play a hand this way expecting me to b/f an overpair, even though his line is super strong.

    my thinking was that it came down to whether he'd ever raise the turn with QQ/KK, which in the end i didn't think he would do enough of the time (if ever), so i folded. plus i think he'd 4bet KK nearly all the time anyway even though he probably shouldn't.
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad. fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    lol yeah i know, i find it really hard to believe their range is ever balanced there.

    another thing that really tilts me is when they 4bet 100bbs deep with like JJ/QQ, and then tank call a 5bet shove. its like afhkashfkjsafkasfjhkssafd
  • potattoooopotattoooo Member Posts: 145
    edited February 2012
    i hate these spots too, but its a call. thought process is pretty much "ok he has shoved, didnt expect that, what a moron, surely he dont do this with nuts, it makes no sense, nah someone playin nl100 is obviously gonna flat IP against me, **** he has seen me 3barrel with air loads of times! its a draw, its 2pair which he is now turning into a bluff very poorly...I CALL...ooh ffs! what a muppet who shoves a jack in this spot...clueless donk...your gettin a big LOL next to my notes on you...RELOAD"...

    LOL_RAISE - dont you think your line of check turn b/f river is ridicously weak?

    COXY - why is shoving draws/bluffin good in this spot? its awful, what are you reppin? every man & his dog knows the correct play for the villian if he has JX, f/h is too call IP and let OP fire river, shovin a draw/bluff on the turn is worse than shovin the nuts
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited February 2012

    Shoving nuts on turn is surely the best move if you know oppo can’t fold

    If you could see yb’s cards then surely you shove ?

     

    Maybe it’s infact a very good turn shove :S

     

    Especially as the majority view is you should not shove nuts on turn :S

     

    So while people say “donk” for shoving turn, maybe you just can’t give player tooo much credit for the move

  • potattoooopotattoooo Member Posts: 145
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    Shoving nuts on turn is surely the best move if you know oppo can’t fold If you could see yb’s cards then surely you shove ?   Maybe it’s infact a very good turn shove :S   Especially as the majority view is you should not shove nuts on turn :S   So while people say “donk” for shoving turn, maybe you just can’t give player tooo much credit for the move
    Posted by rancid
    OP folded AA, shovin the turn with nuts isnt correct move

    it would work well against me tho :P call & make notes imo
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : OP folded AA, shovin the turn with nuts isnt correct move it would work well against me tho :P call & make notes imo
    Posted by potattoooo

    Folded, grrrrrrrrr now we will never know what oppo shoves there :(

    £27 in and fold, you happy with that yb ?
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : You've created a paradox, because by saying shoving any hand is bad in this spot, you suggest that combo draws have better fold equity because the line looks so strong, and so shoving draws in this spot is actually good.
    Posted by CoxyLboro
    if im checking AA here then my value range is Jx+ which draws have 0fe against. and shoving Jx+ is bad because i fold all my air/draws that i can possibly fire a 3rd barrel against
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    LOL_RAISE - dont you think your line of check turn b/f river is ridicously weak?
    Posted by potattoooo
    vs good players yes.
    vs players who im not happy getting QQ/AK in pre vs them, then i think its perfectly fine
  • edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    COXY - why is shoving draws/bluffin good in this spot? its awful, what are you reppin? every man & his dog knows the correct play for the villian if he has JX, f/h is too call IP and let OP fire river, shovin a draw/bluff on the turn is worse than shovin the nuts
    Posted by potattoooo
    YB folded AA. Are you telling me that shoving QTss there isn't good if you can get aces to fold? If 'every man and his dog' flats the turn with Jx and boats, then good players will realise and c/f all rivers, whereas if you jam now with both draws and boats then you can put an overpair in a tough situation.

    I struggle to see why you think shoving bluffs here is bad if good players will fold overpairs. To me, it reinforces that you can bluff here more often profitably.
  • edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : if im checking AA here then my value range is Jx+ which draws have 0fe against. and shoving Jx+ is bad because i fold all my air/draws that i can possibly fire a 3rd barrel against
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    My point was aimed more at players who barrel this turn with overpairs, rather than players like yourself who will take different lines like check turn b/f river, or c/c c/c, or c/c c/f depending on villain.


  • potattoooopotattoooo Member Posts: 145
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : YB folded AA. Are you telling me that shoving QTss there isn't good if you can get aces to fold? If 'every man and his dog' flats the turn with Jx and boats, then good players will realise and c/f all rivers, whereas if you jam now with both draws and boats then you can put an overpair in a tough situation. I struggle to see why you think shoving bluffs here is bad if good players will fold overpairs. To me, it reinforces that you can bluff here more often profitably.
    Posted by CoxyLboro
    good players dont fold overpairs. you tellin me you fold AA if your hero in this spot?

    i seriously cant understand why OP folded
  • potattoooopotattoooo Member Posts: 145
    edited February 2012
    trying to get to AA fold about 100bbs deep isnt normally the best plan i dont think, good players should never fold this, and my nan wouldnt fold this because its AA. how much you charge for lessons again?
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited February 2012
    I suck but I would not fold that against villain as described ever. Not too many combos of AJ,JJ,99 there and doubt he flats worse Js. Surely he shows up with worse enough?
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : good players dont fold overpairs. you tellin me you fold AA if your hero in this spot? i seriously cant understand why OP folded
    Posted by potattoooo
    fwiw i think its exactly the opposite of bolded part
    nit raising paired board we have 1pair i dont see what we beat apart from qq that once in a while doesnt 4b pre

    i wouldnt fold on 77x board

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