kk/qq/ 10/10 draws/bluffs which is apparently great for shovin? if he is a nit you would think minimum he is callin 3bet pre with is AJ so we can rule out KJ/QJ ...if he calls with KJ/QJ he calls with other weaker hands/pairs so we can add them into the mix, again turning hand into a bluff. if its AJ/99 which are pretty much only hands we can give credit for why shove the turn? oohh i know ive got the nuts lets shove and hope he has AA even tho ive seen the guy 3 barrel with air loads...nah! obv he can be shovin the nuts, no doubt, but im prepared to take that chance for the times it aint that and for the info. just coz i think shovin a draw/bluff is awful in this spot it dont mean ppl wont do it, hence coxy who is an online pro encourages it. ppl also shove 10/10, 8/8 etc too because obv hero has ak and we can make it look like its a jack not realsing they hav a hand that can call down--FAIL.
meh wtf do i kno...your the pros....i just think foldin sucks
I'm not encouraging it, I just don't like to dismiss all the options available to us. I talked a little with LOL_RAISE on the matter, and perhaps I was taking the hand too far out of context, suggesting we would have to be deeper to bluff shove the turn, but I also added in hands like JT/QJ to heros range. If I get shoved on 175bb deep with JT on JJ9 I am not going to be happy to stack off there every time to certain villains,
You can also consider the fact that by jamming here against the same villain with some frequency, that you can get to showdown cheaper with marginal hands because hopefully they will stop betting the turn as often.
It's not just the here and now of the hand, sometimes got to consider the implications in future hands.
I'm not encouraging it, I just don't like to dismiss all the options available to us. I talked a little with LOL_RAISE on the matter, and perhaps I was taking the hand too far out of context, suggesting we would have to be deeper to bluff shove the turn, but I also added in hands like JT/QJ to heros range. If I get shoved on 175bb deep with JT on JJ9 I am not going to be happy to stack off there every time to certain villains, You can also consider the fact that by jamming here against the same villain with some frequency, that you can get to showdown cheaper with marginal hands because hopefully they will stop betting the turn as often. It's not just the here and now of the hand, sometimes got to consider the implications in future hands. Posted by CoxyLboro
obviously you have to consider the implications for future hands, but we are discussing 1 hand and 1 spot that OP wanted answers too & in this particular spot this deep shovin draws is bad imo but obviously alot of ppl will do it.
if we are assigning JQ/J10 etc to heros range then obv hero has no problem 3betting light OOP, which is cool, now surely villian who judging my OP notes is a nit but has seen YB barrell numerous times with air against him ages ago (indicates villian has been playin nl100+ for a while) can call alot lighter IP, so i think villians range in this hand is alot wider than ppl are giving credit for. it makes no sense now if villian has flopped the nuts to shove over OPs turn bet, why fold out all air, medium strength hands and is this case strong hands (OP folded AA) its pointless. the hand looks to me like some sort of draw, KK/QQ, small-med pps 3/3-10/10 or AK/AQ which he has called/floated the flop IP and decided to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn by shoving. we already know villian aint great because shoving the turn whatever hand is awful. like i said if it is 99/AJ congrats to him big LOL nxt to his name, notes made, dynamic changes next time.
coxy i understand what your saying above but my arguement is for shovin draws this deep, imo it just lighting money on fire. if we have a draw and we see OP 3bet OOP, lead flop, lead turn setting up potential river shove, i dont think we should ever be attempting to bluff. BUT ppl WILL do it, hence you have to add draws/bluffs into villians range. villians thought process "meh i have 10-10, this guy 3 barrels with air alot, he a bit of a nutter from what i remember, he could have AK/AQ or summat, im gonna smash the lot in on the turn, because i dont want guy to spike an A or K or Q on river, and even if it is AA/KK he will think ive got a jack!--yeah good plan ALL-IN!"....
potato i think youre seriously overestimating how often people will 3 barrel bluff this board, folding out air is probably not that big a consideration, and how often people will c/f the river compared to how often they will c/c a shove on the turn might make it better to shove turn.
Comments
kk/qq/ 10/10 draws/bluffs which is apparently great for shovin? if he is a nit you would think minimum he is callin 3bet pre with is AJ so we can rule out KJ/QJ ...if he calls with KJ/QJ he calls with other weaker hands/pairs so we can add them into the mix, again turning hand into a bluff. if its AJ/99 which are pretty much only hands we can give credit for why shove the turn? oohh i know ive got the nuts lets shove and hope he has AA even tho ive seen the guy 3 barrel with air loads...nah! obv he can be shovin the nuts, no doubt, but im prepared to take that chance for the times it aint that and for the info. just coz i think shovin a draw/bluff is awful in this spot it dont mean ppl wont do it, hence coxy who is an online pro encourages it. ppl also shove 10/10, 8/8 etc too because obv hero has ak and we can make it look like its a jack not realsing they hav a hand that can call down--FAIL.
meh wtf do i kno...your the pros....i just think foldin sucks
if we are assigning JQ/J10 etc to heros range then obv hero has no problem 3betting light OOP, which is cool, now surely villian who judging my OP notes is a nit but has seen YB barrell numerous times with air against him ages ago (indicates villian has been playin nl100+ for a while) can call alot lighter IP, so i think villians range in this hand is alot wider than ppl are giving credit for. it makes no sense now if villian has flopped the nuts to shove over OPs turn bet, why fold out all air, medium strength hands and is this case strong hands (OP folded AA) its pointless. the hand looks to me like some sort of draw, KK/QQ, small-med pps 3/3-10/10 or AK/AQ which he has called/floated the flop IP and decided to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn by shoving. we already know villian aint great because shoving the turn whatever hand is awful. like i said if it is 99/AJ congrats to him big LOL nxt to his name, notes made, dynamic changes next time.
coxy i understand what your saying above but my arguement is for shovin draws this deep, imo it just lighting money on fire. if we have a draw and we see OP 3bet OOP, lead flop, lead turn setting up potential river shove, i dont think we should ever be attempting to bluff. BUT ppl WILL do it, hence you have to add draws/bluffs into villians range. villians thought process "meh i have 10-10, this guy 3 barrels with air alot, he a bit of a nutter from what i remember, he could have AK/AQ or summat, im gonna smash the lot in on the turn, because i dont want guy to spike an A or K or Q on river, and even if it is AA/KK he will think ive got a jack!--yeah good plan ALL-IN!"....