shanxta i know what ya gonna say u can fold this and let the small stack lose hes chips no need to play if there is some 1 shorter stacked then u on the table right but u have kk and ya folding so basically ya gonna fold every single hand then to try and cash its far to nitty Posted by IDONKCALLU
do u even have any maths or reasoning to back up what you say, or do u literally just look at your hand, see KK, and automatically think you have to 3bet jam
Think Im probably shoving because we are unlikely to be crushed, and if we win the showdown we have cashed X % of the time...
We are unlikely to get folds so its all down to our opponants calling range and how often our KK wins against that range. But i aint got a clue how to work this out!! If a maths person wants to have a go and tell me what number the X in my last sentence needs to be to justify an all in, im happy to listen!
i used to work in a bookies for 5 years so i know everyting about maths lol and pot odds and implied odds Posted by IDONKCALLU
Don't wanna burst your bubble or call you a liar or anything but I don't think I've ever see you reason or explain a decision on the posts you have made in the clinic using pot odds or maths just long winded statements describing situations and asking if you were right or wrong.
I hope that in the future you will show some of this knowledge...
I think this spot would be pretty close ICM wise, I close my eyes click shove and open again in 20 secs to see if I won!
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : Don't wanna burst your bubble or call you a liar or anything but I don't think I've ever see you reason or explain a decision on the posts you have made in the clinic using pot odds or maths just long winded statements describing situations and asking if you were right or wrong. I hope that in the future you will show some of this knowledge... I think this spot would be pretty close ICM wise, I close my eyes click shove and open again in 20 secs to see if I won! Posted by NColley
Agree it feeled close, for me it feeled a close fold, but its acualy a very very clear fold, wait for my pics to get approved ^^ to see ICM calcs.
I think if anyone dosnt get that KK in this spot is a fold, dosn't get DYMs as well as they think they do. Posted by TWRAMYEP
I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 85% of the time, and then fold into the money.
However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better.
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 90% of the time, and then fold into the money. However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better. Posted by EvilPingu
The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove Posted by TWRAMYEP
But surely the looser he's calling, the worse his range plays against our KK, and the more likely he is to double us up and we can then fold into the money. Also, and this is why I'm re-shoving here, the looser he's calling, the more likely he is to double up the short stack which puts us in danger - Therefore, the looser he's making this play, the more we should be re-shoving?
I may be wrong, but I don't really want him to double up the shortie a large % of the time, then we're in danger and have to shove in worse spots than this one.
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 85% of the time, and then fold into the money. However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better. Posted by EvilPingu
IMO if you have a stack that big you should be raising or shoving nearly every hand, regardless of your cards, you should shove into the middle stacks BB every time, Especially if they are a solid reg (Who WILL fold)
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove Posted by TWRAMYEP
Surely that is correct for AK etc, but not for a made hand such as KK
In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : Agree it feeled close, for me it feeled a close fold, but its acualy a very very clear fold, wait for my pics to get approved ^^ to see ICM calcs. Posted by TWRAMYEP
Pics tend to take a lifetime to get approved, just "imageshack" them. <google it if your not sure what im on about.
Comments
Gulp
Think Im probably shoving because we are unlikely to be crushed, and if we win the showdown we have cashed X % of the time...
We are unlikely to get folds so its all down to our opponants calling range and how often our KK wins against that range. But i aint got a clue how to work this out!! If a maths person wants to have a go and tell me what number the X in my last sentence needs to be to justify an all in, im happy to listen!
But fwiw, i see KK and rejam it in his eye lol.
Last time I checked Shanxta was in the top 2% of profitable DYM's.
I rarely listen to anyone
Think your missing the point here IDonk
Post some maths explaining this situation so, I would be interested to see some as it seems a sort of weird spot to me
I hope that in the future you will show some of this knowledge...
I think this spot would be pretty close ICM wise, I close my eyes click shove and open again in 20 secs to see if I won!
Interesting, it still feels dirty if short stack doubles up and we end up losing!
your equity difference may not be as bad as you think if small stack doubles up throw big stack.
before this hand:
Equity
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Hero: 27.47%
short: 15.46%
other: 24.49%
big: 32.43%
If short stack double up assuming the limper folds
---------------------------------------------------------
Hero: 24.88%
Short: 23.26%
other: 20.17%
big: 31.55%
so you only loose 2.59% equity if shorty doubles up
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/100yd.png/
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8061/tight.png
Equity calcs
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/862/equitybefore.png/
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5783/equityafter.png
Whats that program you use to work out equity?