FT - Folded a 5high flush on a 4flush board

Lambert180

FT of the £20 guaranteed, is this a fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
mag70	Small blind		300.00	300.00	7925.00
ewee71	Big blind		600.00	900.00	8905.00
	Your hole cards	5 5
Lambert180	Raise		1200.00	2100.00	25817.50
zulu22	Fold
masie	Fold
rubberduk	Fold
mag70	Fold
ewee71	Call		600.00	2700.00	8305.00
Flop
		7 K 7
ewee71	Check
Lambert180	Check
Turn
		4
ewee71	Check
Lambert180	Check
River
		9
ewee71	Bet		2700.00	5400.00	5605.00
Lambert180	Fold
ewee71	Muck
ewee71	Win		2700.00		8305.00
ewee71	Return		2700.00	0.00	11005.00

DOHHHHHHH

Can bet the turn if u want

Fold river yea. 

Dudeskin8

Fact he bets pot makes this a snap fold for me, looks like he's going for max after passive play up till river. 

If he bet like 600 minimum then I'd probz call.

Mohican

Not beating a lot. Insta fold.

cenachav

Would have probably put a bet in on the flop but would def folded the river to that bet.  You're only beating a bluff after all

EvilPingu

Bet flop.

Failing that, bet turn.

As played, bin it.

AMYBR

blinds are sat 13 & 15 bbs deep.  Prob a shove or fold spot for me depending on mid seat stack sizes.

No reason not to fire 1700 -1900 on flop.

As played fold river.

Lambert180

I didn't wanna shove it UTG because although i didn't mind taking a race against the guys in the blinds, Rubberduk if I remember rightly had about 18-19k so I didn't want a call from him.

I know when he's 2nd in chips and on the bubble, he aint gonna wanna call a shove from the chip leader (me) with many hands but it just seemed like an unnecessary risk. I didn't mind him calling my raise and us playing a flop, but not potentially flipping or being crushed

SkyPokerTV

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grantorino

bet flop, fold river, next hand pls

BorinLoner

I don't like the idea of shoving 55 UTG pre-flop when we're not short. If we make the min-raise we can't call off the rest but I'm guessing the plan was to fold to a 3-bet anyway. I don't mind that; it will certainly help us to balance our range and will frequently take down the blinds anyway. When we get calls, a c-bet will get through most times since our opponents will miss on 2/3 flops and this will make us more money.

Got to agree with Evilpingu (As I find myself doing frequently). This is a lovely flop to c-bet. The BB can call the min-raise pre-flop with a huge range of hands and this is one of the things we're hoping for when making the min-raise. The dead money in the pot is yours until he tells you otherwise. Just take it. Half-pot should do the job.

AMYBR

As said with the shove pre line, would depend on mid seat stack size. 

But we arent neccessarily folding to a shove from the blinds so dont want to give them option to shove a paint range on us that folds to a shove. 

If we ARENT willing to flip vs a shove from the blinds prefer a fold UTG as dont want to be in a spot where we are min folding here. 

How many flops are we liking when stationed? + we cant c-bet given their stacks....well we can but will get ugly quick.

BorinLoner

Actually I'd c-bet on probably 80% - 90% of flops. Any flop that doesn't come super-wet like TJQ... It will only get ugly for them. We'll take it down 2/3 times and won't be that concerned by the times that they come over the top. Our stack's big enough to play it like this. I definitely don't think we ned to risk 1/3 of our stack, when we can probe at them for much less. If they come over the top pre-flop, we can easily fold here and not worry about it.

Folding is fine but if we're entering this pot I like the min-raise. I'd do the same.

AMYBR

myeh I cant agree on this one bud.  We are playing pocket 5's IP vs blinds with 13ish bb stacks.  The fact that we will tend to c bet IP when checked to is going to hurt us  They hit any part or draw we will likely see a crai on flop.  Even then, this is when we dont get shoved on pre and are marginally priced to call vs a flip @ best.

Just prefer to put the hard decision on them pre, negating their option to shove paint (or better) - or just get out of the way pre. 

If Blind stacks are deeper happy enough to make a standard raise.  Here I prob just fold pre, or ship depending on the midseats and Lag factor.

Edit: As said though, as played am always betting that flop.

BorinLoner

We're not priced to call a shove pre-flop. We only would be if we could guarantee two overcards and not an overpair. It's probably close to 50-50 on that, so we can't call and expect it to be +ev.

Admittedlly, this is a tight decision pre-flop because of position. Nine or ten-handed I probably let it go but six-handed I'd probably just fall on the side of making the raise. The thing is, I'm willing to accept not winning this pot as well as the chance of taking it down here. Min-raising then folding will do wonders for your image and as long as your doing the same thing with big hands, I don't mind giving my opponents a little encouragement to 3-bet me. At some point, I'll have the hand and with a large stack I can afford to take the short-term knock for the long-term gain. If they start 3-betting these min-raises it's pretty simple to just tighten-up and wait for the hand to trap them with.

I agree, there's a chance they'll hit the flop and maybe check-raise us... but that'll happen only 1/3 times and we'll win it 2/3 times with our c-bet. If it goes wrong it might cost us 2550 chips (against a BB call) in total. That's not so bad.

The effect of playing it this way isn't likely to be of huge benefit to our stack, though I generally see small profits from it, long-term. The real benefit is that by playing a wide range and giving ourselves a loose image, we get paid off more often when we have big hands. The alternative is that we only play big hands UTG, or that we are forced to shove with those big hands in order to balance our UTG range. We can't min-bet big hands and shove marginal ones without becoming exploitable.

AMYBR

Yes all the above is obv true.  The issue in this particular instance being our most likely oppo's only having 12 & 14 bbs. 

Taking much of the obv Tstrategy that you mention off the table.

BorinLoner

I don't really agree. I actually think that these 13BB type stacks are the perfect stacks to target in this way. Generally speaking, in lowish buy-in tournies and in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, it's more profitable to assume that our opponents are bad rather than assume they're good. These 12-20BB stacks are exactly the sort of stacks that I'd want to target because they'd almost uniformly prefer to make the opening bet with hands like QJ and worse. That means they're only likely to 3-bet us with KQ and better and they won't have those hands very often.

If you told me that the BB's name was lolufold or TommyD I'd suggest a different course of action but usually I'd just target these stacks, assuming they're weak until I see different. I'd fancy that the overall play would be profitable as well as setting up my table image for later.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: FT - Folded a 5high flush on a 4flush board:

I don't really agree. I actually think that these 13BB type stacks are the perfect stacks to target in this way. Disagree.  Generally speaking, in lowish buy-in tournies and in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, it's more profitable to assume that our opponents are bad rather than assume they're good Agree.. These 12-20BB stacks are exactly the sort of stacks that I'd want to target because they'd almost uniformly prefer to make the opening bet with hands like QJ and worse Disagree, all that range shoves on us here from a 13> bb stack. That means they're only likely to 3-bet us with KQ and better and they won't have those hands very often Agree, but they will peel when they oughtnt from the SB/BB.  Leaving us in utter no mans land post, also never releasing any part of the board. If you told me that the BB's name was lolufold or TommyD I'd suggest a different course of action but usually I'd just target these stacks, assuming they're weak until I see different. I'd fancy that the overall play would be profitable as well as setting up my table image for later.
Posted by BorinLoner

I agree with the Tstrategy as a rule, its one i fully subscribe to myself.  But in the hand posted we will basically be playing for 25% of our stack in very muddy water post/pre - withh 55 and no antes.  Not happy being in a situ where we b/f pre, nor where we min and call it off vs dominated hands and plain flips.  But am happy to isolate one of the two stacks to a flip for 25% or 13bbs.  A decent range of hands fold to a shove that would re shove on a min here.  But as said (lol) does heavily depend on midseat game/stack size.  We open ourselves up to abuse from the c/o also.  I can see alot of decent stackep players making life very difficult for you.

In this instance I think the min is an error vs blind stack sizes, given the limited options they have for playing their hand

Our hand will obv play badly vs any connection or draw, that oppo will play supper aggro with shallow stack.

We have a comfortable, playable, 40bb stack.  Do we really want to be in a position to invest 25% so precariously? 
 

BorinLoner

This is where we really differ: I would never, ever, ever call off for 13BB if I make the raise to 2BB. Why would you want to do that? It's gifting a cheap double up to players that we don't need to double up. Even on the flop, when called, I'd be willing to bet half-pot (probably another 2.5BB) and then fold for the shove. The only way I'd get it in here is if I hit the set. So I'm not risking 25% of my stack at all.

As for the hand ranges, we both know there are massive variations in the hands that different players will shove with. I don't think poor players are shoving too often with QJ or worse. I can't prove that but it wouldn't take me long to cotton on to a particular players 3-betting range if it differed from this.

AMYBR

When did I say I would call his aipf shove? That would be the third, least desirable choice.

Your way we are minning pre and investing another 2.5ish bbs with a cbet that is virtually always going to be a bluff, being played back at with a crai shove from better hands and draws - draws that will virtually always be flips, but we wont be able to tell the difference if we are behind or against a draw.

So we invest 4.5bigs trying to win a hand against the ropes, best case case scenario where no one else but blind(s) enter pot.  More than one caller our c-bet becomes bigger or we are plain c/fing.  Oppo only begins hand with 13bbs,  So we can use 5 bbs to attempt to take down a pot that is always going to be played blind for the most part, or we can use 13 to force out even money flips that opt to shove on us when we min, potentially better pps, dont allow us to be bluffed off pot or allow oppo's find draws.

So I prefer a shove pre to isolate the blind, giving us opportunity to pick up blinds uncontested or get it in on a flip where we have made oppo decide for Tlife OR a plain fold pre UTG.

In honesty I lean far more on the fold pre.  I think there are obv strong merits on both arguments we have outlined.  Just a matter of personal preference, balance of small ball & aggression.  This isnt a spot where I would bother with small ball, nor image. 

If stacks are deeper this hand obv plays different.

BorinLoner

There's one more point I have to mention: if our opponent has a draw on the flop, he's likely to be a favourite since most of the time he'll have two overcards to our 55. That's not enough to make the fold correct, obviously, since there'll be a huge amount already in the pot but add it to the chance of us being dead to two outs and their range for the check-raise probably makes it a fold. (It would take a monster session on poker stove to go over the numbers and I don't use poker stove, lol)

I know what you're saying and most of what you say is tough to disagree with. Definitely nothing wrong with the fold but it will give you different problems when you want to get value from your made hands. Those problems won't be any bigger than the problems that can be caused by min-raising these spots... but then problems are where the skill of the game lies, aren't they?

I can't say for certain which way is better but I can say that neither way is wrong.