There's one more point I have to mention: if our opponent has a draw on the flop, he's likely to be a favourite since most of the time he'll have two overcards to our 55. That's not enough to make the fold correct, obviously, since there'll be a huge amount already in the pot but add it to the chance of us being dead to two outs and their range for the check-raise probably makes it a fold. (It would take a monster session on poker stove to go over the numbers and I don't use poker stove, lol) I know what you're saying and most of what you say is tough to disagree with. Definitely nothing wrong with the fold but it will give you different problems when you want to get value from your made hands. Those problems won't be any bigger than the problems that can be caused by min-raising these spots... but then problems are where the skill of the game lies, aren't they? I can't say for certain which way is better but I can say that neither way is wrong. Posted by BorinLoner
Exactly
I dont know if you misunderstood what I meant with being crai on flop by a draw. Point being we wont know the diff between being beat or being against a draw with 5 high, so it would always be a fold anyway, tieing into what I mentioned around any c-bet virtually always being a bluff vs the shallow stack.
The second part in regard to value: for a variety of reasons I'd likely be shoving top of my range pre vs the stack sizes @ table. Am sure you dont need me to expand on why, answering what you mention/imply on balancing.
Enjoyed the debate. Respect both lines. Its just for me the stacks in blinds are too shallow for the pay off of painting self into corner. Commit to a potential flip for 25% with pressure on them - or fold for me.
Ah, right. I did misunderstand you. We both made the same point about folding the flop; 55 becomes a total bluff with a c-bet and has almost no value without hitting the set.
This is why I like the forum though. I'm not dim enough to think I'm always "right" but I think it helps to defend your position to confirm to yourself that you're not "wrong". Of course, if someone convinces you that you are wrong that's even more valuable, but it takes reasoned arguments to do either. I much prefer your replies on these threads to those who reply with three or four words, with the greatest of respect to them.
Watch any high profile Poker TV show. Always a pro analyse section, four pros pick apart hands in hindsight on current EPT season. They very very rarely agree. But their reasons make each pov correct.
Being what you mention. If you cant defend your POV you dont have a POV to begin with
Agree forum is massively beneficial in terms of articulating thought process and applying it.
Am sure someone will be happy to come along later (.....Grantorino perhaps?) and tell us we are both wrong
Well said bud. Watch any high profile Poker TV show. Always a pro analyse section, four pros pick apart hands in hindsight on current EPT season. They very very rarely agree. But their reasons make each pov correct. Being what you mention. If you cant defend your POV you dont have a POV to begin with Agree forum is massively beneficial in terms of articulating thought process and applying it. Am sure someone will be happy to come along later (.....Grantorino perhaps?) and tell us we are both wrong Fun debate though Posted by AMYBR
lol amybr, u calling me out? Scared to get involved in this one, debating with u and BL is too tiring and goes of on too many tangents.
Seeing as I'm here though , honestly I think there is merit to both your arguments. Will make a few points though
1. I think openfolding pre is absolutely fine. If you are folding to a 3bet there is very little difference in opening 55 and atc this shallow
2. If you do minopen, its going to be a pretty marginal decision in terms of pure chip EV whether to call or fold, unless blinds are ultratight. May be decent tournament strategy related reasons to fold
3 Shoving pre sound ok to me, and makes it difficult for them to call without very top of range, they will fold some hands they shove over a minopen. If you do this you need to balance your range and do it with big hands. With stacks the way they are shoving any hand you open mightnt be that bad a strategy, but I dont really like shoving 55 unless you shove all your opening range
4. The one thing I would really disagree with is when BL said he doesnt mind encouraging them to 3bet (I understand its not the end of the world if they 3bet us this particular time). Its much better if they keep flatting and folding imo as we can open junk profitably much easier and we get junk much more often than big hands
Postflop if you cbet, Im not sure its as auto a fold as you guys seem to think if we get jammed on, prob is a fold though
Well the thing is that if we can encourage them to 3-bet us by doing certain things, that's good for us. If we pick up KK, UTG+1 and we know that the last few times we've min-raised one of our opponent's has 3-bet, that makes them exploitable. We just have to adapt and stop opening light. Of course, I'd love it if they just kept folding to me... That would be much, much better.
Comments
I dont know if you misunderstood what I meant with being crai on flop by a draw. Point being we wont know the diff between being beat or being against a draw with 5 high, so it would always be a fold anyway, tieing into what I mentioned around any c-bet virtually always being a bluff vs the shallow stack.
The second part in regard to value: for a variety of reasons I'd likely be shoving top of my range pre vs the stack sizes @ table. Am sure you dont need me to expand on why, answering what you mention/imply on balancing.
Enjoyed the debate. Respect both lines. Its just for me the stacks in blinds are too shallow for the pay off of painting self into corner. Commit to a potential flip for 25% with pressure on them - or fold for me.
This is why I like the forum though. I'm not dim enough to think I'm always "right" but I think it helps to defend your position to confirm to yourself that you're not "wrong". Of course, if someone convinces you that you are wrong that's even more valuable, but it takes reasoned arguments to do either. I much prefer your replies on these threads to those who reply with three or four words, with the greatest of respect to them.
Watch any high profile Poker TV show. Always a pro analyse section, four pros pick apart hands in hindsight on current EPT season. They very very rarely agree. But their reasons make each pov correct.
Being what you mention. If you cant defend your POV you dont have a POV to begin with
Agree forum is massively beneficial in terms of articulating thought process and applying it.
Am sure someone will be happy to come along later (.....Grantorino perhaps?) and tell us we are both wrong
Fun debate though
Seeing as I'm here though
1. I think openfolding pre is absolutely fine. If you are folding to a 3bet there is very little difference in opening 55 and atc this shallow
2. If you do minopen, its going to be a pretty marginal decision in terms of pure chip EV whether to call or fold, unless blinds are ultratight. May be decent tournament strategy related reasons to fold
3 Shoving pre sound ok to me, and makes it difficult for them to call without very top of range, they will fold some hands they shove over a minopen. If you do this you need to balance your range and do it with big hands. With stacks the way they are shoving any hand you open mightnt be that bad a strategy, but I dont really like shoving 55 unless you shove all your opening range
4. The one thing I would really disagree with is when BL said he doesnt mind encouraging them to 3bet (I understand its not the end of the world if they 3bet us this particular time). Its much better if they keep flatting and folding imo as we can open junk profitably much easier and we get junk much more often than big hands
Postflop if you cbet, Im not sure its as auto a fold as you guys seem to think if we get jammed on, prob is a fold though
flop - prefer c bet and just take it down if you that way inclined and playing to build your stack )
or delayed turn c bet is fine
fold river
fred has become over complicated )