I'd be folding usually from my experience in a BH, it doesn't matter if you have 11bbs and open shove into a guy with 28bb, I've been snap called by everything from A6o to 43s, 910s is the nuts to some of these people.
For that reason I'd rather be shoving Ax Kx Qx, any 2 broadways because you have better equity when called.
@ lambert you talk about how your KJ is not significantly better? have a think about it lad. You shove on BB, when you are called you can dominate some of his range, and are 50/50 against 22-1010, and have 3 outs vs JJ and QQ.
Now apply the same logic to 72, yes the chances of you being dominated by hands are probably limited to A7/A2, but in most cases you are a 35% dog to 2 overcards anyway and are crushed by 77+ and have 3 outs against 22-66.
--- 7,232,772,096 games 0.001 secs 7,232,772,096,000 games/sec
Board: Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 46.656% 44.22% 02.44% 3198399696 176132120.00 { KJs, KJo } Hand 1: 53.344% 50.91% 02.44% 3682108160 176132120.00 { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
---
--- 506,841,984 games 0.050 secs 10,136,839,680 games/sec
Board: Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 31.592% 31.12% 00.47% 157732671 2388670.00 { 7c2c } Hand 1: 68.408% 67.94% 00.47% 344331973 2388670.00 { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
---
Same calling ranges in both, results would be affected by the standard of the player in the BB though, but as you can see, 72 is significantly worse off when called.
This is a BH, probably a £2.30 one, the standard of play is usually poor, these players are not going to playing to the standard of the top MTT players of the site.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm all for shoving in this spot. Cards don't matter to me here, I'm not expecting to be called and if I am called and knocked out I don't regret the move.
Borin I think your suggested calling range is wayyyyyy too tight. I'm surprised because you play alot HU? You must be clued up on shallow call/shoving ranges? Fold 77? really? To op I would shove wide here, but not any 2 yet. Foldit. Any pair, Ace, suited Kings, some other broadways and high suited hands etc. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
I didn't mean I'd fold 77: I'd fold 66 but call with 77... But yeah, I'm folding those hands.
If this ws HEads-up, it's different, but this is an MTT. I can fold these low pairs and weak Aces or Kings (I'd probably call with KQ) because I know that I can put the pressure on later by making the move myself. I don't want to be calling off what is a pretty deep stack late on in an MTT unless I have a big hand.
Borin I think your suggested calling range is wayyyyyy too tight. I'm surprised because you play alot HU? You must be clued up on shallow call/shoving ranges? Fold 77? really? To op I would shove wide here, but not any 2 yet. Foldit. Any pair, Ace, suited Kings, some other broadways and high suited hands etc. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
kinda agree as my first post, fold ATC here - play FTW not for the blinds ) But yeah shoving Dohhh range is nice!
In Response to Re: MTT - 12bbs, 72, SB, Shove or Fold? : I didn't mean I'd fold 77: I'd fold 66 but call with 77... But yeah, I'm folding those hands. If this ws HEads-up, it's different, but this is an MTT. I can fold these low pairs and weak Aces or Kings (I'd probably call with KQ) because I know that I can put the pressure on later by making the move myself. I don't want to be calling off what is a pretty deep stack late on in an MTT unless I have a big hand. Posted by BorinLoner
if you had experience in playing these low buy ins BH's I think you wouldn't be underestimating villians calling ranges. I don't know maybe you do, but as I said there are some very loose calls in these types of tournaments.
As I say, I'm talking about the average player in the average tournament. Not a clue how these Bounty Hunters play, really. I think I've played two of them (Online) in my life. I'd consider that someone altering their calling range just because it's a bounty hunter is a below average player anyway.
In Response to Re: MTT - 12bbs, 72, SB, Shove or Fold? : I didn't mean I'd fold 77: I'd fold 66 but call with 77... But yeah, I'm folding those hands. If this ws HEads-up, it's different, but this is an MTT. I can fold these low pairs and weak Aces or Kings (I'd probably call with KQ) because I know that I can put the pressure on later by making the move myself. I don't want to be calling off what is a pretty deep stack late on in an MTT unless I have a big hand. Posted by BorinLoner
Why?
+ev is +ev innit?
Assuming we're within our roll.
You'd have to believe you have a huge edge to decline +ev spots in MTT's.
I'd decline +ev spots just because I think I can build my stack without taking the chance of calling it off. If I'm reasonably comfortable (28BB here) I can pick my spots a little more but I'm always trying to get my chips in first. I'd rather shove a 93o in the SB or button than call with a KJs in the BB against a SB shove. With 28BB I've also got a lovely 3-bet shoving stack against other relatively deep stacks.
If I was in this BB with A3 and you showed me that you'd shoved with 72, I think I'd still fold. I'd think my chances of winning the tournament would be better if I could get my chips in first in later hands, rather than call now as a marginal favourite.
(This is all assuming that the tournament isn't populated by sharks. Otherwise my edge isn't going to be big enough to justify my faith in being able to outplay the field. We are talking about "average" players after all.)
Paddling uphill with the comments on +ev folds for fringe reasons there bud, have layed out the reasoning myself in the past to little point. But in all honesty I suspect that our seemingly aligned reasons for this approach is likely flawed. But i agree we dont have to be a slave to EV+ in certain spots.
Comes down to a purely personal thing that is best kept to self for most part.
Have scanned through these posts. Dont think we can polarise calling ranges this tightly. in blind on blind scenario dynamic/image is going to be a significant factor vs perceived range.
Comments
I'd be folding usually from my experience in a BH, it doesn't matter if you have 11bbs and open shove into a guy with 28bb, I've been snap called by everything from A6o to 43s, 910s is the nuts to some of these people.
For that reason I'd rather be shoving Ax Kx Qx, any 2 broadways because you have better equity when called.
@ lambert you talk about how your KJ is not significantly better? have a think about it lad.
You shove on BB, when you are called you can dominate some of his range, and are 50/50 against 22-1010, and have 3 outs vs JJ and QQ.
Now apply the same logic to 72, yes the chances of you being dominated by hands are probably limited to A7/A2, but in most cases you are a 35% dog to 2 overcards anyway and are crushed by 77+ and have 3 outs against 22-66.
---
7,232,772,096 games 0.001 secs 7,232,772,096,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.656% 44.22% 02.44% 3198399696 176132120.00 { KJs, KJo }
Hand 1: 53.344% 50.91% 02.44% 3682108160 176132120.00 { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
---
---
506,841,984 games 0.050 secs 10,136,839,680 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.592% 31.12% 00.47% 157732671 2388670.00 { 7c2c }
Hand 1: 68.408% 67.94% 00.47% 344331973 2388670.00 { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
---
Same calling ranges in both, results would be affected by the standard of the player in the BB though, but as you can see, 72 is significantly worse off when called.
This is a BH, probably a £2.30 one, the standard of play is usually poor, these players are not going to playing to the standard of the top MTT players of the site.
nah got another 4 hands now until you hit the blinds again, just fold.
If this ws HEads-up, it's different, but this is an MTT. I can fold these low pairs and weak Aces or Kings (I'd probably call with KQ) because I know that I can put the pressure on later by making the move myself. I don't want to be calling off what is a pretty deep stack late on in an MTT unless I have a big hand.
But yeah shoving Dohhh range is nice!
I don't know maybe you do, but as I said there are some very loose calls in these types of tournaments.
I'd decline +ev spots just because I think I can build my stack without taking the chance of calling it off. If I'm reasonably comfortable (28BB here) I can pick my spots a little more but I'm always trying to get my chips in first. I'd rather shove a 93o in the SB or button than call with a KJs in the BB against a SB shove. With 28BB I've also got a lovely 3-bet shoving stack against other relatively deep stacks.
If I was in this BB with A3 and you showed me that you'd shoved with 72, I think I'd still fold. I'd think my chances of winning the tournament would be better if I could get my chips in first in later hands, rather than call now as a marginal favourite.
(This is all assuming that the tournament isn't populated by sharks. Otherwise my edge isn't going to be big enough to justify my faith in being able to outplay the field. We are talking about "average" players after all.)
Comes down to a purely personal thing that is best kept to self for most part.
Have scanned through these posts. Dont think we can polarise calling ranges this tightly. in blind on blind scenario dynamic/image is going to be a significant factor vs perceived range.
Well, if other players want to call off 40% of their stacks with 22, 33, JT or QT that's fine by me.