In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : EvilPingu's range here is any two cards. Literally any two. Any 5-bet simply ends the hand unless he happens to be sitting there with AA or KK. The only way I can see any extra value is to call and check to him on the flop. He might not fire, but it's EvilPingu... there's every chance that he will. If you want to take it down now and make all weaker hands fold, then 5-bet. Since there are no stronger hands than AA, I'd suggest that we try to find more value. Posted by BorinLoner
because when you peel the 4bet oop our hand is face up as being KK+? are we flatting TT-QQ,AK,AQ here aswell? i find it hard to believe that someone who as you describe is very aggro with preflop 3b/4b wars is only stacking off with KK+ pre in what is the perfect squeeze spot for us.
the way you try to exploit someone who will 4b bluff a ton is to adjust your 3b/5b range. not to turn your hand face up and let him play perfectly vs us.
200bb deep and im all for flatting pre, but 100bb deep it is in almost all cases suboptimal imo
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : because when you peel the 4bet oop our hand is face up as being KK+? are we flatting TT-QQ,AK,AQ here aswell? i find it hard to believe that someone who as you describe is very aggro with preflop 3b/4b wars is only stacking off with KK+ pre in what is the perfect squeeze spot for us. the way you try to exploit someone who will 4b bluff a ton is to adjust your 3b/5b range. not to turn your hand face up and let him play perfectly vs us. 200bb deep and im all for flatting pre, but 100bb deep it is in almost all cases suboptimal imo Posted by LOL_RAISE
Any action we take facing the 4-bet is liable to turn our hand face up. All we can do is hope that EvilPingu doesn't think that we're particularly competent when we flat the 4-bet. We just have to hope that he sees us as someone who will peel with AQ, TT, etc.
The problem, as I see it, is that so few players are ever going to 5-bet with anything less than KK here that he really is never going to stack off with anything less than KK himself. He'd have to give us credit for being a really clever/reckless player to call us with QQ or worse and most players just aren't that clever or reckless. Maybe if we had alot of history with him and he knew we were capable of this. (I'm not sure if that's the case here)
I totally agree that we'd need to adjust our raising range against EvilPingu but I can only argue my case on the basis of the information we have. If we know EvilPingu is super-aggro and we don't have any real history with him, then the flat is the only way I can see us getting any more value. Yes, 5-bet him in future with hands like TT, 99, AQ, AJ, so we can do the same with AA after building up our history with him, but right now I want value from these Aces.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : Any action we take facing the 4-bet is liable to turn our hand face up. All we can do is hope that EvilPingu doesn't think that we're particularly competent when we flat the 4-bet. We just have to hope that he sees us as someone who will peel with AQ, TT, etc. Posted by BorinLoner
i would much rather take the line where its possible that we can be bluffing rather than telling our opponent that we always have a strong hand and never have air
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : i would much rather take the line where its possible that we can be bluffing rather than telling our opponent that we always have a strong hand and never have air Posted by LOL_RAISE
I understand and if it was you or someone else who's well known as having an aggressive game (I don't think I'm out of line saying that about you, am I?) then I wouldn't disagree at all. In a vacuum, I think we'll be assumed to be bad alot more often than we'll be assumed to be 5-betting light.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : I understand and if it was you or someone else who's well known as having an aggressive game (I don't think I'm out of line saying that about you, am I?) then I wouldn't disagree at all. In a vacuum, I think we'll be assumed to be bad alot more often than we'll be assumed to be 5-betting light. Posted by BorinLoner
btn vs blind it's pretty standard to be stacking off with QQ/JJ/AK etc.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : btn vs blind it's pretty standard to be stacking off with QQ/JJ/AK etc. people aren't going to be 4b/fing them anyway Posted by yb
Well, I've pretty much been over why I think those hands won't be part of EvilPingu's calling range. I don't think a good player is going to 4-bet with QQ, JJ and AK, and then call a 5-bet from an unknown unless they're getting close to 4/1 pot odds. A 5-bet from an unknown is usually a monster hand - AA, KK and possibly QQ. EvilPingu is definitely a good player.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : Well, I've pretty much been over why I think those hands won't be part of EvilPingu's calling range. I don't think a good player is going to 4-bet with QQ, JJ and AK, and then call a 5-bet from an unknown unless they're getting close to 4/1 pot odds. A 5-bet from an unknown is usually a monster hand - AA, KK and possibly QQ. EvilPingu is definitely a good player. Posted by BorinLoner
4-bet-folding 100bb is just ..RE****** with say 1010, jj, qq, ak etc, odds got nout to do with it really sice its ABC Super-Standard, if evilspingu's get it in range is only AA,KK,QQ from the button then he needs to widen his range, .
Edit: just now seen the hand, 4-bet folding with the cr-ap he has then its ok lol,
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : Well, I've pretty much been over why I think those hands won't be part of EvilPingu's calling range. I don't think a good player is going to 4-bet with QQ, JJ and AK, and then call a 5-bet from an unknown unless they're getting close to 4/1 pot odds. A 5-bet from an unknown is usually a monster hand - AA, KK and possibly QQ. EvilPingu is definitely a good player. Posted by BorinLoner
so you're saying good players are only willing to stack off with AA/KK btn vs blind 100bbs deep? 4b/fing QQ/AK would be pretty awful, both flatting the 3bet in position or 4b/cing would be fine depending on reads.
I'm saying that, readless, most players do not 5-bet with less than a premium pair. I know alot of aggro players might, especially playing against another aggro player, but without reads there are far more players that will play it straight than there are players that will 5-bet light. So I'm not saying that good players are only willing to stack off pre-fop with AA or KK; I'm saying that they should only be willing to call off their stack to a 5-bet, pre-flop from an unknown player with AA or KK.
people who can play pokah dont 4b/f any pretty hand btn v blind As usual +1 to everything lolraise said Posted by grantorino
Well, if we say that we're holding QQ, we're facing a 3-bet from an unknown and we believe that he's only ever 5-betting with AA or KK, I think "people who can play pokah" ought to be willing to 4-bet, fold. This is the only way 100BB deep that we can ever get away from QQ if our opponent is holding AA or KK. The alternative is to call and see a flop. Then what do we do on a low flop? We still stack-off to AA or KK. What do we do on an Ace-high or King-high flop? We probably fold without knowing if we were ever behind.
If we 4-bet we can't call a 5-bet if we think they only do it with AA or KK. Saying that you should never 4bet, fold is just foolish. It would leave you saying "I know I need 4/1 pot odds for this to be correct. I'm not getting 4/1 but I'm still going to call... because I made a 4-bet." That's demonstrably -EV thinking.
So we 4-bet and hope that he folds or calls. If he calls, we can reasonably think he doesn't have AA or KK but we should be happy to take the dead money. If he raises, a large majority of the time this means AA or KK so we need 4/1 to call.
Well, yes that's what I was getting at: Obviously we can't fold QQ to just any old 3-bet, so the alternative to the 4-bet is a call. That still leaves us probably stacking off to AA or KK if the board comes low but gains us value against lower pairs and perhaps AJ, AQ, AK type hands. The thing is, I don't think we always lose that value if we 4-bet. I think alot of players will call a 4-bet pre-flop with those hands. So that's a good reason to 4-bet. Of course they'll fold a fair amount of their 3-betting range, but I think the RIO of bringing those hands along by calling is probably enough to say we don't want those hands to see the flop - 22+ and suited connector-type hands - Anything more than a single c-bet from them is frequently going to mean we're in bad shape.
So I'm pretty much saying that the 4-bet is the best value play with QQ whether they have an overpair or not. We can get away when they have us beat, get value from alot of their range and take down the dead money the rest of the time, which will only cost us a small amount in potential value from a c-bet.
The main point of contention that I'm surprised nobody is disputing is that "a majority of unknown players are only 5-betting with AA or KK". Is there general agreement with this?
the flaw in your logic imo is that you're assuming that the majority of players flat 4bets oop 100bbs deep at 100nl a decent amount of time, which just isn't the case.
and to answer your question i disagree that most players only get stacks in with AA,KK blind vs btn 100bbs deep
the flaw in your logic imo is that you're assuming that the majority of players flat 4bets oop 100bbs deep at 100nl a decent amount of time, which just isn't the case. and to answer your question i disagree that most players only get stacks in with AA,KK blind vs btn 100bbs deep Posted by yb
It's the same point again, that I'm not talking about getting stacks in, I'm talking about 5-betting all-in. That's not the same as 3-betting all-in or 4-betting all-in. It suggests that they've seen the strength of a 4-bet and are still willing to get the lot in.
As for how many players are going to flat the 4-bet, I think it largely depends on the size of the 4-bet. If it's not too big I think people will set-mine or call with AK looking to hit. Might be wrong, but I don't think people will just fold these hands cheaply.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : Well, if we say that we're holding QQ, we're facing a 3-bet from an unknown and we believe that he's only ever 5-betting with AA or KK, I think "people who can play pokah" ought to be willing to 4-bet, fold. This is the only way 100BB deep that we can ever get away from QQ if our opponent is holding AA or KK. The alternative is to call and see a flop. Then what do we do on a low flop? We still stack-off to AA or KK. What do we do on an Ace-high or King-high flop? We probably fold without knowing if we were ever behind. If we 4-bet we can't call a 5-bet if we think they only do it with AA or KK. Saying that you should never 4bet, fold is just foolish. It would leave you saying "I know I need 4/1 pot odds for this to be correct. I'm not getting 4/1 but I'm still going to call... because I made a 4-bet." That's demonstrably -EV thinking. So we 4-bet and hope that he folds or calls. If he calls, we can reasonably think he doesn't have AA or KK but we should be happy to take the dead money. If he raises, a large majority of the time this means AA or KK so we need 4/1 to call. Posted by BorinLoner
4b/f is lolbad with QQ readless imo. How do you make out people only 5bet shove KK+? People dont flat 4bets at 100NL type levels much, so we cant 4b/f QQ. If yo know they do only 5bet shove KK+ then dont 4b/f QQ flat it and play poker. If they 5b wider either 4b/c or flat the 3bet.
If you are playing someone who is bad enough to flat 4bets with AJ etc and bad enough that their 5b range is KK+ you can take your line. Its not a good assumption to make though imo at 100NL.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : It's the same point again, that I'm not talking about getting stacks in, I'm talking about 5-betting all-in. That's not the same as 3-betting all-in or 4-betting all-in. It suggests that they've seen the strength of a 4-bet and are still willing to get the lot in. As for how many players are going to flat the 4-bet, I think it largely depends on the size of the 4-bet. If it's not too big I think people will set-mine or call with AK looking to hit. Might be wrong, but I don't think people will just fold these hands cheaply. Posted by BorinLoner
getting stacks in preflop 100bbs deep will more often be achieved by 5bet shoving than by 3bet/4bet shoving so i don't get your point really.
it's a lot more likely for people to 5bet shove with AK than for them to call a 4bet oop with it.
In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : getting stacks in preflop 100bbs deep will more often be achieved by 5bet shoving than by 3bet/4bet shoving so i don't get your point really. it's a lot more likely for people to 5bet shove with AK than for them to call a 4bet oop with it. Posted by yb
Well there you go then, this is the "flaw in my logic" as you put it, if you're right. I don't think I'm going to be convinced that an "average" nl100 player is 5-betting lighter than KK but maybe I'm wrong. Obviously a fair few players are capable of that but I think until I have history with a player and I've seen them do this sort of thing repeatedly, I'd be giving them credit for having that tight 5-betting range. I just think that's how a majority of players play.
Comments
Also, it's not an extra £8 - It's not being raised from £24 to £32 (Idk why Sky shows bets this way), it's being raised another £32.
yea that is quite odd confused the bum off me i was taking you for a mug then bigtime lol
i find it hard to believe that someone who as you describe is very aggro with preflop 3b/4b wars is only stacking off with KK+ pre in what is the perfect squeeze spot for us.
the way you try to exploit someone who will 4b bluff a ton is to adjust your 3b/5b range. not to turn your hand face up and let him play perfectly vs us.
200bb deep and im all for flatting pre, but 100bb deep it is in almost all cases suboptimal imo
The problem, as I see it, is that so few players are ever going to 5-bet with anything less than KK here that he really is never going to stack off with anything less than KK himself. He'd have to give us credit for being a really clever/reckless player to call us with QQ or worse and most players just aren't that clever or reckless. Maybe if we had alot of history with him and he knew we were capable of this. (I'm not sure if that's the case here)
I totally agree that we'd need to adjust our raising range against EvilPingu but I can only argue my case on the basis of the information we have. If we know EvilPingu is super-aggro and we don't have any real history with him, then the flat is the only way I can see us getting any more value. Yes, 5-bet him in future with hands like TT, 99, AQ, AJ, so we can do the same with AA after building up our history with him, but right now I want value from these Aces.
people aren't going to be 4b/fing them anyway
As usual +1 to everything lolraise said
If we 4-bet we can't call a 5-bet if we think they only do it with AA or KK. Saying that you should never 4bet, fold is just foolish. It would leave you saying "I know I need 4/1 pot odds for this to be correct. I'm not getting 4/1 but I'm still going to call... because I made a 4-bet." That's demonstrably -EV thinking.
So we 4-bet and hope that he folds or calls. If he calls, we can reasonably think he doesn't have AA or KK but we should be happy to take the dead money. If he raises, a large majority of the time this means AA or KK so we need 4/1 to call.
So I'm pretty much saying that the 4-bet is the best value play with QQ whether they have an overpair or not. We can get away when they have us beat, get value from alot of their range and take down the dead money the rest of the time, which will only cost us a small amount in potential value from a c-bet.
The main point of contention that I'm surprised nobody is disputing is that "a majority of unknown players are only 5-betting with AA or KK". Is there general agreement with this?
and to answer your question i disagree that most players only get stacks in with AA,KK blind vs btn 100bbs deep
As for how many players are going to flat the 4-bet, I think it largely depends on the size of the 4-bet. If it's not too big I think people will set-mine or call with AK looking to hit. Might be wrong, but I don't think people will just fold these hands cheaply.
If you are playing someone who is bad enough to flat 4bets with AJ etc and bad enough that their 5b range is KK+ you can take your line. Its not a good assumption to make though imo at 100NL.
it's a lot more likely for people to 5bet shove with AK than for them to call a 4bet oop with it.