Terrible Play or Unlucky?

Lambert180

This is a hand from a Cardiff satellite. 19 players started so there's 3 seats and £88 for 4th. We're down to 15 and I think I was about 8th.

Villian has been raising pretty much every button, and I figured there's no way he could call for 90% of his stack unless he has QQ+ especially when he is in no need/rush to take a race. BB is also pretty short and is not gonna wanna call off light when he could find a spot to get it in first.

Is this horrendous play and an unnecessary risk or just very unlucky?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Lambert180	Small blind		50.00	50.00	2685.00
POKERD4DDY	Big blind		100.00	150.00	810.00
	Your hole cards	A 10
CroupesDog	Fold
MAXALLY	Fold
minty11	Raise		300.00	450.00	2837.50
Lambert180	All-in		2685.00	3135.00	0.00
POKERD4DDY	Fold
minty11	All-in		2837.50	5972.50	0.00
minty11	Unmatched bet		402.50	5570.00	402.50
Lambert180	Show	A 10
minty11	Show	A A
Flop
		3 9 4
Turn
		Q
River
		J
minty11	Win	Pair of Aces	5570.00		5972.50

percival09

it's fine imo

r/c would also be ok

YOUNG_GUN

You have 26 Bigs bit too much imo

Personally i make it 800, probably fold to a 4 bet

If u had <20 bigs then i think it is standard and ul

grantorino

not terrible play

you have options though 27BB deep. You could raise/call. I wouldnt mind making it 800 and folding to a shove v some villains. You can also call and play some poker

AMYBR

Totally standard.

rancid

fold pre with that stack

or

3 bet fold

no need to 3 bet jam if you think oppo is getting frisky on btn - oppo calling range will be beating you so... 3 bet fold 800 or something

or

just flat if oppo is fire fire bet like a monkey

Lambert180

3 bet folding - Do I really wanna be sticking in 8 of my 27BBs only to fold? And if he's very active/aggro does he not sometimes rejam with worse hands?

DOHHHHHHH

I would have done the same thing.

JockBMW

This isn't personal Lambert so Please dont take it so. I'm going to disagree with everyone else.

I think it is too much of a risky play.  You are in the middle of the field, with a healthy 27 BB's, you put your entire tournament life on A 10 Suited.  Sorry mate but that is not a good enough hand to be making that play with.

Call see a flop, miss it, fold to his bet whenever it comes, and you still have around 25BB and plenty of time to qualify.

Remember this is a sat so it's about getting across the finish line even if it's just with one chip.  That was a play of someone who was playing a tournament and wanted to get a chip stack to win it.

Almost everyone else who has replied is a better player than me, so they're prob right.  Just felt quite strongly about this one so thought I'd stick my tuppence worth in 

grantorino

Options pre

fold: give up poker and take up knitting imo

call: Personally I think this is the best given your reads, so long as you have a plan to c/r lots of flops you miss

shove: well its likely profitable, but you turn your hand into a bluff. AT not quite the same as 72 here, but it it is the same as A2

3b/c: Ok if you think he 4bets a wide enough range. Not sure he does when you have no reads posted on his 4betting range, whether you have been 3betting

3b/f. Again turns our hand into a bluff but is likely profitable. Risks us folding against some hands we should call against. Leaves us a playable stack if he shoves

rancid

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

3 bet folding - Do I really wanna be sticking in 8 of my 27BBs only to fold? And if he's very active/aggro does he not sometimes rejam with worse hands?
Posted by Lambert180

lol then fold

do you wanna stick in 27bb and get called like always and you will be behind ?

By jamming your only hoping oppo folds better, what hands do you think call that you beat

Yeah jamming you got like FE a plenty but if you 3bet a frisky btn then btn should fold - or call with worse and then you can play some nice pokerz if you get a nice flop - obviously if btn floats you pre and you miss flop then c/f grrrrrrrr or if you hit then c/c yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa - or w/e flop and you c/r frisky btn c bet  boooooooooooom

percival09

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

Options pre fold: give up poker and take up knitting imo call: Personally I think this is the best given your reads, so long as you have a plan to c/r lots of flops you miss shove: well its likely profitable, but you turn your hand into a bluff. AT not quite the same as 72 here, but it it is the same as A2 3b/c: Ok if you think he 4bets a wide enough range. Not sure he does when you have no reads posted on his 4betting range, whether you have been 3betting 3b/f. Again turns our hand into a bluff but is likely profitable. Risks us folding against some hands we should call against. Leaves us a playable stack if he shoves
Posted by grantorino

I disagree because I do think players could call with A8,A9 here... 

esp if villain thinks hero is just playing back vs a constant btn raise

Glenelg

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:
[QUOTE Imo call: Personally I think this is the best given your reads, so long as you have a plan to c/r lots of flops you miss,
Posted by grantor no Interested in this GT,  did you mean c/f? 
Considering there will be 750 in the pot. What do you think minty’s actions would be on the flop? If he bets pot can we raise/shove? I agree with Jockbmw, given the tourney and stacks.

AMYBR

If we 3bet and get stationed we only have a pot sized bullet post flop.

How do we play stronger hands here?  AKAQAAKKQQ?  Personally I prob shove, as any 3bet I make will be slightly bigger oop, again leaving us only a pot sized bullet.  Only reason to make a 3bet to 850ish imo would be a) to make our hand look stronger than it really is vs buttons supposed range b) to snap off/induce a shove.

Because I ship all my stronger hands here for value - with pretty aggro image, feeling worse likely calls from stacks - + based on the slightly tricky stack size, I would only be shipping here or flatting.  Never ever a spot to 3bet as button will likely peel IP anyhow & doubtful we are 3betting to snap tbh.

Dont hate a shove.  Dont hate a flat.  Slightly lean towards a shove though.

Will also likely shutdown buttons trigger finger in following orbits also, if we are aggro as standard. 

profman15

Hi Lambert

Without looking at other probably more assured reads I do feel that the shove with ur stack size is a little rash. Villain hasn't limped though a lot min raise these days don't they? I think your logic is sound enough though for the shove. I'd probably have called and seen the flop but some would say that's the worst option after folding. For your thinking your shove is sound but IMO , I wouldn't.

Anyway, that's poker.....just as long as the Blues win tomorrow eh? Cheers

grantorino

@glenelg, I doubt he fires potsized cbets if he opens 90% of btns, and I meant c/r

I dont think villain will flat a small 3bet often, is he really going to peel ip with only a potsize bet behind (assuming he's not a fish)

With regard to percival and amybr comments, its pretty image dependent and lambert hasnt posted any history between them, so Im assuming he hasnt being 3betting his btn opens too often. I dont expect him to call off 24BB more with A8 or KQ too often without a pretty interesting dynamic between them.

Im not really against any of the options except folding to the open.  

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

@glenelg, I doubt he fires potsized cbets if he opens 90% of btns, and I meant c/r I dont think villain will flat a small 3bet often, is he really going to peel ip with only a potsize bet behind (assuming he's not a fish) With regard to percival and amybr comments, its pretty image dependent and lambert hasnt posted any history between them, so Im assuming he hasnt being 3betting his btn opens too often. I dont expect him to call off 24BB more with A8 or KQ too often without a pretty interesting dynamic between them. Im not really against any of the options except folding to the open.  
Posted by grantorino

Grr really beginning to get annoyed @ typing a post then spam coming up and locking it out....

We arent exactly shoving looking to get a call here, although I do feel there is the potential to be called by worse,

Think we can force out some even money flips with the solid ship.  I dont like our alternative tbh.  Flatting what we perceive as best hand oop to c/f flop majority of time vs almost assured cbet or making an ugly 3bet that is simply for the basis of information if we know we are snap folding to a shove - or leaves us in very bad territory on flop stack/pot wise when pf 3bet gets stationed IP

We can pick up 500 w/out running a board increasing our stack by 20%, while discouraging button moves in future orbits.

Unless button is tooight I pretty much always ship here.  When called I think we get the last bet in vs coinflips, wrse and even better hands we have equity vs.  We find a way to win pre/flip/ or behind with equity we can be much more confident on taking a seat.

rancid

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

@glenelg, I doubt he fires potsized cbets if he opens 90% of btns, and I meant c/r I dont think villain will flat a small 3bet often, is he really going to peel ip with only a potsize bet behind (assuming he's not a fish) With regard to percival and amybr comments, its pretty image dependent and lambert hasnt posted any history between them, so Im assuming he hasnt being 3betting his btn opens too often. I dont expect him to call off 24BB more with A8 or KQ too often without a pretty interesting dynamic between them. Im not really against any of the options except folding to the open.  
Posted by grantorino

Well I disagree with this, you can fold this spot very easily
Such a level spot, oppo will fold worse and call with better without dynamics
If you really want to play back at frisky btn then ignore your cards and 3 bet atc

Just because btn is opening btn a lot doesn't mean you should hang your hat on A10

reverse the level and show oppo a hand -

if oppo is raising btn lots then oppo is either folding to a raise or calling/jamming with better

but anyway in a sat at this stage with no antes and that stack =FOLD OR 3 B/F
You obviously take away the burden with more reads, so 3 b/f atc before this and what does oppo do - if you get my drift
If oppo been raising btn lots then just 3 bet atc and say "Oi Behave!"

grantorino

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky? : Grr really beginning to get annoyed @ typing a post then spam coming up and locking it out.... We arent exactly shoving looking to get a call here, although I do feel there is the potential to be called by worse, Think we can force out some even money flips with the solid ship.  I dont like our alternative tbh.  Flatting what we perceive as best hand oop to c/f flop majority of time vs almost assured cbet or making an ugly 3bet that is simply for the basis of information if we know we are snap folding to a shove - or leaves us in very bad territory on flop stack/pot wise when pf 3bet gets stationed IP We can pick up 500 w/out running a board increasing our stack by 20%, while discouraging button moves in future orbits. Unless button is tooight I pretty much always ship here.  When called I think we get the last bet in vs coinflips, wrse and even better hands we have equity vs.  We find a way to win pre/flip/ or behind with equity we can be much more confident on taking a seat.
Posted by AMYBR

 
Like I said I dont hate shoving

If I flat Im not c/f everytime I miss

Well the 3bet is really a bluff if we are 3b/f, I would think we get some hands we would like to fold to fold. Bluffing AT seems kinda bad to me here though, esp as the part of his range he folds that we beat flip with is so small. But we can still pick up 500 uncontested a lot.

 Shoving is much the same although it may increase our fe and stops him reshoving worse or small pairs, Im not so sure shoving />3b/c though. Agree the fact we have some half decent equity against everything but AA is helpful if we want to shove or 3b/c

Yeah spr will be awkward if he flats, but unless hes a fish or slowplays KK+ he wont flat

grantorino

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky?:

In Response to Re: Terrible Play or Unlucky? : Well I disagree with this, you can fold this spot very easily Such a level spot, oppo will fold worse and call with better without dynamics If you really want to play back at frisky btn then ignore your cards and 3 bet atc Just because btn is opening btn a lot doesn't mean you should hang your hat on A10 reverse the level and show oppo a hand - if oppo is raising btn lots then oppo is either folding to a raise or calling/jamming with better but anyway in a sat at this stage with no antes and that stack =FOLD OR 3 B/F You obviously take away the burden with more reads, so 3 b/f atc before this and what does oppo do - if you get my drift If oppo been raising btn lots then just 3 bet atc and say "Oi Behave!"
Posted by rancid

Fold AT to a btn open from a guy who opens 90%? You can, you can fold KK too if you like

Our hand is pretty stroing to 3b/f, but yeah if you want to turn it into atc and do this its ok. You will also be getting close to the required equity to call v most ranges though. If our only other option is to fold we are turning it into atc anyway

rancid

Well the only way btn is getting it in versus us with worse is if there is a lot of history with hero 3 betting btns opens a fair few and then maybe btn jams on our 3 bet or even calls our jam

As it's a sat I would want more equity with that stack given that dynamic, btn may be aggro aggro waiting for a spot where blinds play back wider than btn calling range - don't see why we would wait till btn opens for the 20th time and just jam and level ourselves without being involved in previous action

These spots I feel require dynamics, this is like a snap jam I have had enough spot -

FOLD IS EZ